Beating Buy and Hold (thru disciplined speculation)

[drbubb]

The risk in your trading strategy was very much illustrated by the MF Global bankruptcy this week.

 

Imagine if you had sold your silver at $48.70 then bought the $7 call and had your cash sitting on account at MF Global waiting for the opportunity to buy back in...

My money was not sitting in an MF Global account.

MFG have been in trouble before, and like any smart trader, I avoid them. There were signs of difficulty before this news hit, and so there was time to get out.

 

(There's now a CRIMINAL investigation against MFG - these are rather rare - and it is hard to stop fraud, if someone wants to commit one.)

 

Meantime, Silver prices have fallen sharply, and the B&H crowd has suffered a real loss in the value of their Silver holdings, wherever it might have been kept.

 

I'm afraid to anyone who is not obsessed with notion that all forms of Trading are bad, your argument is a clear loser.

 

Also: Have you noticed how much of both portfolios have been shifted into Physical Silver and SLV. Once I hit 10,000 physical silver ounces in Alt.Portfolio #2, there will be a clear and unassailable lead in that portfolio, and there will be nothing that can happen to deny it or stop it. I am "taking my time", because I believe there is still plenty of time.

[drbubb]

So I sold at the exact top.

I bought back pretty darn close to the bottom, and what did I have to show for it:

A measly: 283.500 - 263.760 = 19.740 rubles.

 

So I risked some of my Silver on the hunch that we would get a correction - I had the near best exit and entry points that an amateur could hope to get.

Silver made a 47% correction (in $) and one had to be either a lunatic or an optimist to expect such a correction beforehand (I did, and yes I am both a lunatic and an optimist).

And all I made was a measly 7% profit.

 

My conclusion is that when dealing with real physical metal, and real world taxes and premiums - Buy and hold is the only thing that makes sense.

You would still have to pay tax when you unload your B&H Silver.

In fact, the taxes may be even higher by then. You might find in the long run, you are better off taxing the "tax hit" in stages.

 

As to timimg, you would have done better mirroring the trades on this thread. I am making these decisions and trades in real time, not in hindsight. I don't always get it right, but I think you will see I am a fairly consistent winner versus B&H.

[Pixel8r]

My money was not sitting in an MF Global account.

MFG have been in trouble before, and like any smart trader, I avoid them. There were signs of difficulty before this news hit, and so there was time to get out.

 

(There's now a CRIMINAL investigation against MFG - these are rather rare - and it is hard to stop fraud, if someone wants to commit one.)

 

Meantime, Silver prices have fallen sharply, and the B&H crowd has suffered a real loss in the value of their Silver holdings, wherever it might have been kept.

 

I'm afraid to anyone who is not obsessed with notion that all forms of Trading are bad, your argument is a clear loser.

 

Also: Have you noticed how much of both portfolios have been shifted into Physical Silver and SLV. Once I hit 10,000 physical silver ounces in Alt.Portfolio #2, there will be a clear and unassailable lead in that portfolio, and there will be nothing that can happen to deny it or stop it. I am "taking my time", because I believe there is still plenty of time.

As I pointed out above plenty of 'smart' traders did get caught, in fact $633 million of clients money is missing.

 

The thing you not accounting for in your buy & hold calculations is the fact that many B&Her's add to their positions on dips and some, like me, swap between metals at times as well. As I have said many times before I am sure you will be able to beat my simple buy & holding, it is not a surprise or a game to me.

 

I am not obsessed with the notion that all trading as bad as you keep trying to make out, I am just giving you my reasons for not wanting to do so.

 

 

You are continually trying to make this into a battle or competition. I really don't care and fully expect your constant trading in and out of things to do better than my buy & hold strategy, but that doesn't make me a loser.

[50sQuiff]

You would still have to pay tax when you unload your B&H Silver.

In fact, the taxes may be even higher by then. You might find in the long run, you are better off taxing the "tax hit" in stages.

 

As to timimg, you would have done better mirroring the trades on this thread. I am making these decisions and trades in real time, not in hindsight. I don't always get it right, but I think you will see I am a fairly consistent winner versus B&H.

 

You are. It's quite impressive, but I don't think many could replicate it long-term.

 

It's also worth remembering that some forms of gold are CGT-free and legal tender. High premiums now will be meaningless compared with the eventual tax benefits imo.

[Manual labourer]

As I pointed out above plenty of 'smart' traders did get caught, in fact $633 million of clients money is missing.

 

The thing you not accounting for in your buy & hold calculations is the fact that many B&Her's add to their positions on dips and some, like me, swap between metals at times as well. As I have said many times before I am sure you will be able to beat my simple buy & holding, it is not a surprise or a game to me.

 

I am not obsessed with the notion that all trading as bad as you keep trying to make out, I am just giving you my reasons for not wanting to do so.

 

 

You are continually trying to make this into a battle or competition. I really don't care and fully expect your constant trading in and out of things to do better than my buy & hold strategy, but that doesn't make me a loser.

 

 

 

I think I would like to have a go at this trading game,what about a game of beginners luck v old pro Drb? We could open a couple of fantasy accounts DRB, with a broker so all trades would be accountable? If I ever DID risk it in realtime real money it would never account for more than 5% of my total asset wealth.

 

 

I wonder who sleeps better at night the B&H of held wealth in PM in hand, or HOLDER OF cyberspace amount on a screen as as banks and brokers and nations go bust on a daily basis?

 

Regards

 

ML

[drbubb]

As I pointed out above plenty of 'smart' traders did get caught, in fact $633 million of clients money is missing.

 

The thing you not accounting for in your buy & hold calculations is the fact that many B&Her's add to their positions on dips...

Do you want me to post stories (that I might find) where people's gold or silver was stolen, or safety deposit boxes were violated? I reckon I could find some.

 

If I have a problem like MFG, I will let you know. But meantime, it seems like you are engaging in fear-mongering while ignoring the real losses that B&H has made from price movements.

 

Kindly reign in your fear-mongering here. The point (of the dangers of fraud) was made once, it doesn't need to be made again and again.

 

Please stick with the subject of this thread, which is the many strategies that can be used to Beat Buy & Hold.

[drbubb]

I wonder who sleeps better at night the B&H of held wealth in PM in hand, or HOLDER OF cyberspace amount on a screen as as banks and brokers and nations go bust on a daily basis?

No one will sleep well if posters get engaged in a war of fear-enhancement.

 

Let's stick to the facts, and the strategies employed here, or will be forced to go searching for stories like these:

 

(1)

QUOTE

Not-So-Safe-Deposit Boxes: States Seize Citizens' Property to Balance Their Budgets

 

By ELISABETH LEAMY .. May 12, 2008

 

The 50 U.S. states are holding more than $32 billion worth of unclaimed property that they're supposed to safeguard for their citizens. But a "Good Morning America" investigation found some states aggressively seize property that isn't really unclaimed and then use the money -- your money -- to balance their budgets.

 

Unclaimed property consists of things like forgotten apartment security deposits, uncashed dividend checks and safe-deposit boxes abandoned when an elderly relative dies.

 

Banks and other businesses are required to turn that property over to the state for safekeeping. The problem is that the states return less than a quarter of unclaimed property to the rightful owners.

 

Not-So-Safe-Deposit Boxes

San Francisco resident Carla Ruff's safe-deposit box was drilled, seized, and turned over to the state of California, marked "owner unknown."

UNQUOTE

/see: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4832471&page=1#.TriZxkOa9tM

 

 

(2)

QUOTE

Gold, cash stolen from MP's home

Nov 7, 2011

 

Two burglars allegedly broke into the Bhiwandi bungalow of Congress MP Suresh Taware and made away with two kg gold worth over Rs 50 lakh and Rs 2 lakh in cash on Saturday night. They also allegedly assaulted the MP's neighbour, who was staying in the bungalow in his absence.

UNQUOTE

[drbubb]

MESSAGE REGARDING MF GLOBAL ACCOUNTS

 

I haven't been terribly concerned about this issue, since it has no direct effect because:

 

+ The accounts I use for Beating B&H are with Fidelity and HSBC, so I have no MF Global exposure

+ In any case, I have a standard "stock account" (where I trade etfs and options on etfs), rather

than a commodities account, so I have limited indirect information on how MFG account holders

are coping

 

Neverthless, I can understand that some here may be concerned. I did not have any reason to research it myself, but I am aware that some TFNN listeners do have accounts at MFG, so the TFNN podcasters are following the situation more closely than I. In his podcast yesterday, Larry Pesevento spoke with one of his futures contacts, and you may want to listen to the conversation:

 

MP3 : http://www.tigeruniversity.com/mp3/TOS110711.mp3

 

From this conversation with "Rich", I understand:

 

+ The CME exchange has moved quickly to transfer the accounts to other firms,

 

+ Account positions should be tradable again this week, and some cash (to cover the margin in those positions) should be transferred too. The real concern has been around the "excess cash" beyond what was needed for margin. Some were worried it would be lost,

 

+ All accounts up to US$500,000 are fully protected SPIC insurance. Beyond that, they will be waiting to see how the investigations go, to see if there would be losses. I heard somewhere else that MFG has US$500 million sitting in an account at JP Morgan, and that may represent "the missing money."

 

What is clear is: The situation is nowhere as dire as some here may have said. And it looks like every account of up to US$500,000 will suffer no loss. That would include either AP account, since they are both well under $500,000, when you subtract out the Physical Silver positions.

 

I am slightly disappointed that those who did raise concerns did not bother to do some research to see what the real story was. In my way of thinking, this is meant to be a joint exercise in learning how to manage risks better, not just a free-for-all in tossing mud at those who trade. (Shame on the fear-mongers ! Surely you can be a bit less biased and dramatic in the future.)

[drbubb]

You forgot silver!!

Actually, silver has been rising, but recently at a slower rate.

 

In fact, I have been able play this phenomenom in the Beating B&H portfolio, through buying Gold as a proxy for Silver, and continue to monitor the Ratio. Perhaps this is something that GEI traders, and 24k's "non-traders" should both be watching

 

sold another 50 at hk$1331

 

...from above...

And closed at $33.12 in aftermarket trading - $33.25 in normal trading,

Versus: GLD's $168.92 aftermarket, $169.06 - Normal trading.

That's a Ratio of 5.100 aftermkt, 5.085 normal trading

 

(in edit):

COMPARE friday's closing levels:

GLD == : 170.85 - $0.87 / - 0.51%

SLV == : $33.20 - 0.418 / - 1.24%

G/S == : 5.146

 

Gold/GLD to Silver/SLV Ratio

 

Symb. : --Thu- : -11/04 : -11/07 :

-GLD- : 169.06 : 170.85 : 174.98 :

-SLV- : $33.25 : $33.20 : $34.08 :

Ratio- : - 5.085 :- 5.146 :- 5.134 :

-SLW-: ====== ======: $37.10 :

W-slv : ====== ======: $03.02 :

[Manual labourer]

No one will sleep well if posters get engaged in a war of fear-enhancement.

 

Let's stick to the facts, and the strategies employed here, or will be forced to go searching for stories like these:

 

(1)

QUOTE

Not-So-Safe-Deposit Boxes: States Seize Citizens' Property to Balance Their Budgets

 

By ELISABETH LEAMY .. May 12, 2008

 

The 50 U.S. states are holding more than $32 billion worth of unclaimed property that they're supposed to safeguard for their citizens. But a "Good Morning America" investigation found some states aggressively seize property that isn't really unclaimed and then use the money -- your money -- to balance their budgets.

 

Unclaimed property consists of things like forgotten apartment security deposits, uncashed dividend checks and safe-deposit boxes abandoned when an elderly relative dies.

 

Banks and other businesses are required to turn that property over to the state for safekeeping. The problem is that the states return less than a quarter of unclaimed property to the rightful owners.

 

Not-So-Safe-Deposit Boxes

San Francisco resident Carla Ruff's safe-deposit box was drilled, seized, and turned over to the state of California, marked "owner unknown."

UNQUOTE

/see: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4832471&page=1#.TriZxkOa9tM

 

 

(2)

QUOTE

Gold, cash stolen from MP's home

Nov 7, 2011

 

Two burglars allegedly broke into the Bhiwandi bungalow of Congress MP Suresh Taware and made away with two kg gold worth over Rs 50 lakh and Rs 2 lakh in cash on Saturday night. They also allegedly assaulted the MP's neighbour, who was staying in the bungalow in his absence.

UNQUOTE

 

Anybody who holds gold at home is a fool a couple of masked guys with an iron would soon have you handing it over. ALLOCATED ACCOUNT or local bank security box or better still Swiss storage box,is the way forward.

 

DRB, you are a gambler simple as that, you are very good at it and good luck to you in the future,HOWEVER AS IN ANY FORM OF GAMBLING THER ARE WINNERS AND LOSERS. Why would you want to convert A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF BH holders into losers? Secondly you are myopic in your view of how the system could all go down very quickly and physical holding price could detach from paper price ask a northern rock account holder how they felt?

 

Gamble all you want but with antagonistic thread titles what do you expect? Constantly beating out the same tune with a loud drum puts people off coming here, well done!

 

Regards

 

ML

[drbubb]

DRB, you are a gambler simple as you are very good at it and good luck to you in the future,AS IN ANY FORM OF GAMBLING THER ARE WINNERS AND LOSERS. Why would you want to convert BH holders into losers? Secondly you are myopic in your view of how the system could all go down very quickly and physical holding price could detach from paper price ask a northern rock account holder how the felt?

It seems you do still not get it : I am the opposite of a gambler : I am more risk averse than the Buy & Hold boys

 

I switch some of my holdings from Silver into Cash plus in-the-money SLV calls after a move up. And then await a price fall to move the Cash back into Silver.

 

In what possible way is that gambling? I see it as intelligent use of options as a risk management tool, not gambling.

 

If you don't "get" what I am doing then kindly be honest enough to admit it. Do not accuse me of gambling.

[Manual labourer]

It seems you do still not get it : I am the opposite of a gambler : I am more risk averse than the Buy & Hold boys

 

I switch some of my holdings from Silver into Cash plus in-the-money SLV calls after a move up. And then await a price fall to move the Cash back into Silver.

 

In what possible way is that gambling? I see it as intelligent use of options as a risk management tool, not gambling.

 

If you don't "get" what I am doing then kindly be honest enough to admit it. Do not accuse me of gambling.

 

This is the crux of the whole matter, it is you with your greater interlect that isn't getting it!

 

To a true buy and holder by having your wealth tied up in broker accounts and options and futures accounts you are gambling much as in the same way of holding a vast percentage of your wealth in fiat is a gamble !

 

 

 

Regards

 

ML

[drbubb]

This is the crux of the whole matter, it is you with your greater interlect that isn't getting it!

To a true buy and holder by having your wealth tied up in broker accounts and options and futures accounts you are gambling much as in the same way of holding a vast percentage of your wealth in fiat is a gamble !

Regards, ML

LOL

Well if you think holding a part of our wealth in brokerage accounts is gambling,

how can we even have a conversation about these strategies?

 

What makes you think your silver, wherever it is held, is safe?

Who else knows it is there? That would represent the first level of risk.

[drbubb]

Trades This Week:

SOLD HK-2840 (HK's version of GLD) at HK$1308 x 200 (+$33,668 : +AP#1) at $7.77

(a few days sold another 50 at hk$1331):

SOLD HK-2840 (HK's version of GLD) at HK$1331 x 050 (+$8,565 : +AP#1) at $7.77

Sold the rest:

SOLD HK-2840 (HK's version of GLD) at HK$1352 x 150 (+$26,100 : +AP#1) at $7.77

 

I see light volume on this rise, and it is well ahead of Silver.

Meantime, Larry P's podcast speaks of how Open Interest in Gold Futures are falling as the price rise.

And that is generally bearish.

[fexx]

This is the crux of the whole matter, it is you with your greater interlect that isn't getting it!

 

Unfortunately this is correct.

 

Everyone "gets it". They do not "agree with it"

 

Put simply;

"many people do not want to swap something of value for something which has a reasonable chance of becoming worthless overnight."

 

This is the point which you have consistently failed to address throughout this thread and the reason that some posters on here consider your trading to be gambling.

[fexx]

LOL

Well if you think holding a part of our wealth in brokerage accounts is gambling,

how can we even have a conversation about these strategies?

 

What makes you think your silver, wherever it is held, is safe?

Who else knows it is there? That would represent the first level of risk.

 

As this is really a debate about risk, it might be far more productive to shift the focus of this debate toward this.

 

I would consider leaving the B&H thread for B&H strategies and debating the risks involved in trading strategies/wealth preservation during the ensuing financial crisis in a separate thread.

[drbubb]

Unfortunately this is correct.

 

Everyone "gets it". They do not "agree with it"

 

Put simply;

"many people do not want to swap something of value for something which has a reasonable chance of becoming worthless overnight."

 

This is the point which you have consistently failed to address throughout this thread and the reason that some posters on here consider your trading to be gambling.

I am sorry, but you are speaking complete crap now.

 

If you don't want to have any money in a stock-trading account, then just leave this thread alone. The people who agree with such a policy, already agree with you - They do not need convincing.

 

The many others that are happy to hold a portion of their wealth in a stock account, and would like to learn something useful about trading options (and other instruments) in a low risk way would appreciate it if you would take your anti-Trading, anti-etf obsession elsewhere.

 

Personally, I think that sitting with loads of Gold or Silver at home, or even in an allocated of unallocated account is fraught with risk. But I would prefer not to discuss that ON THIS THREAD. If you would like to discuss that with me and others on GEI then I suggest you start another thread. And I will be happy to share my opinions of about the risk you are unwittingly taking there.

 

Meantime, kindly leave this thread in peace to those who want to discuss strategies and refinements.

[drbubb]

I would consider leaving the B&H thread for B&H strategies and debating the risks involved in trading strategies/wealth preservation during the ensuing financial crisis in a separate thread.

We seem to agree on that.

You are very welcome to start a thread on that.

I will be relieved to stop having to defend a thread with some useful and profitable options strategies from those who think any form of option is an embodiment of evil.

[fexx]

I am sorry, but you are speaking complete crap now.

 

If you don't want to have any money in a stock-trading account, then just leave this thread alone. The people who agree with such a policy, already agree with you - They do not need convincing.

 

The many others that are happy to hold a portion of their wealth in a stock account, and would like to learn something useful about trading options (and other instruments) in a low risk way would appreciate it if you would take your anti-Trading, anti-etf obsession elsewhere.

 

Could you please point me to anywhere that I have said this or gave any indication that this was the case?

I have stock accounts and trade. I have found this thread and some of your strategies interesting.

 

I do believe that this difference in perceptions of risk is the reason behind many of the arguments here, I don't think it has ever been addressed, and I don't believe that I am talking "complete crap".

 

 

Personally, I think that sitting with loads of Gold or Silver at home, or even in an allocated of unallocated account is fraught with risk. But I would prefer not to discuss that ON THIS THREAD. If you would like to discuss that with me and others on GEI then I suggest you start another thread. And I will be happy to share my opinions of about the risk you are unwittingly taking there.

 

Meantime, kindly leave this thread in peace to those who want to discuss strategies and refinements.

 

We seem to agree on that.

You are very welcome to start a thread on that.

I will be relieved to stop having to defend a thread with some useful and profitable options strategies from those who think any form of option is an embodiment of evil.

 

I really would do this, it would be far more productive for both threads. It would leave this one free to focus on options strategy, and another to discuss how best to quantify risk in the current economic environment.

 

Although, I would bear in mind that there will be the same disparity of opinion here too as level of risk will be a subjective thing and different for everyone. I would also like to hear your opinions on risks of holding PMs in allocated storage.

[Pixel8r]

Do you want me to post stories (that I might find) where people's gold or silver was stolen, or safety deposit boxes were violated? I reckon I could find some.

 

If I have a problem like MFG, I will let you know. But meantime, it seems like you are engaging in fear-mongering while ignoring the real losses that B&H has made from price movements.

 

Kindly reign in your fear-mongering here. The point (of the dangers of fraud) was made once, it doesn't need to be made again and again.

 

Please stick with the subject of this thread, which is the many strategies that can be used to Beat Buy & Hold.

I have been buying silver since below $10 in '08, three years later this has gone up by over 250%. You talk to me about the real losses and I am sorry but I just don't see them, I actually see massive gains which have outperformed almost everything. Just look at silver for just over the last year, it has gone from $20 to a base at $35 which is a 75% gain.

 

I get the feeling that you have missed this boat and are now trying to prove yourself by trading your way back ahead. Simply buying and holding when the fear mongers where talking about deflation was actually the thing to do and has been proved to be correct. Anyone who has been around here since '08 will remember the conversations we have had in the past.

 

If I remember correctly you were really worried about deflation in '08 and didn't buy any silver when it was at a massive discount. You are talk about fear mongering but anyone can see that I have been recommending buying and holding silver since '08, anyone who has followed what I have been doing has made serious money, especially when you factor the additional swaps that I have been talking about. They also hold actually ounces of metal which are not the liability of a bankrupt bank in the largest financial crisis ever.

 

You are putting yourself and your followers at a massive risk and I feel I have to warn when you try to make out everything is so easy and risk free. Face up to it MF Global may not be the only fraud that gets uncovered as these bankrupt banks get ever more desperate. Please no more silly stories about how my neighbour could dig it up, it's hardly the same level of risk is it.

[drbubb]

I have been buying silver since below $10 in '08, three years later this has gone up by over 250%. You talk to me about the real losses and I am sorry but I just don't see them, I actually see massive gains which have outperformed almost everything. Just look at silver for just over the last year, it has gone from $20 to a base at $35 which is a 75% gain.

 

I get the feeling that you have missed this boat and are now trying to prove yourself by trading your way back ahead. Simply buying and holding when the fear mongers where talking about deflation was actually the thing to do and has been proved to be correct. Anyone who has been around here since '08 will remember the conversations we have had in the past.

 

If I remember correctly you were really worried about deflation in '08 and didn't buy any silver when it was at a massive discount. You are talk about fear mongering but anyone can see that I have been recommending buying and holding silver since '08, anyone who has followed what I have been doing has made serious money, especially when you factor the additional swaps that I have been talking about. They also hold actually ounces of metal which are not the liability of a bankrupt bank in the largest financial crisis ever.

 

You are putting yourself and your followers at a massive risk and I feel I have to warn when you try to make out everything is so easy and risk free. Face up to it MF Global may not be the only fraud that gets uncovered as these bankrupt banks get ever more desperate. Please no more silly stories about how my neighbour could dig it up, it's hardly the same level of risk is it.

Okay:

+ Your LOSS is an Opportunity Loss from almost $50 down to the present price ($35?)

+ This thread shows many trades that I have done, both long and short, and I have made money while the Silver prices has fallen

+ Prior to the peak in Silver, and the later Peak in Gold I was long Gold and Gold shares. I have outperformed Gold since 2001, by a rather wide margin. But my overall portfolio underperformed the move up from $1200 to $1900, and then did far better (making money) while Gold fell from $1900+ to under $1600.

+ As you know, I suggested "loading up the boat" at near $1600, and so I am doing well in this latest move.

 

If you are comfortable with your rather Huge opportunity loss from $49 to $35, then you may understand why I do not worry about a period of underperformance during Gold's $1200 to $1900 move - I made money since then, and I am still miles ahead of Gold's move overall, and probably Silver's too.

 

"You are putting yourself and your followers at a massive risk"

I have no followers. People who visit this site and this thread are adults, and if they learn something from the (low risk!) trading ideas I present here, that's fine. As you know, I make no money from any of this, as so your comment strikes me as both "gratuitous" and "complete crap."

 

"Face up to it MF Global may not be the only fraud that gets uncovered as these bankrupt banks get ever more desperate."

You have exaggerated the risk, and stoked up fear. What is your motivation in doing that?

 

I suggest we move the discussion about risk factors to another thread. I do not want to continue contaminating this Options and Timing oriented thread with such irrelevancies.

[Manual labourer]

I have been buying silver since below $10 in '08, three years later this has gone up by over 250%. You talk to me about the real losses and I am sorry but I just don't see them, I actually see massive gains which have outperformed almost everything. Just look at silver for just over the last year, it has gone from $20 to a base at $35 which is a 75% gain.

 

I get the feeling that you have missed this boat and are now trying to prove yourself by trading your way back ahead. Simply buying and holding when the fear mongers where talking about deflation was actually the thing to do and has been proved to be correct. Anyone who has been around here since '08 will remember the conversations we have had in the past.

 

If I remember correctly you were really worried about deflation in '08 and didn't buy any silver when it was at a massive discount. You are talk about fear mongering but anyone can see that I have been recommending buying and holding silver since '08, anyone who has followed what I have been doing has made serious money, especially when you factor the additional swaps that I have been talking about. They also hold actually ounces of metal which are not the liability of a bankrupt bank in the largest financial crisis ever.

 

You are putting yourself and your followers at a massive risk and I feel I have to warn when you try to make out everything is so easy and risk free. Face up to it MF Global may not be the only fraud that gets uncovered as these bankrupt banks get ever more desperate. Please no more silly stories about how my neighbour could dig it up, it's hardly the same level of risk is it.

 

 

I have to agree and add in that by calling the thread "Beating Buy and Hold(with options and TAsignals)" wasn't the brightest of moves!

 

 

Maybe " Gambling with a portion of your wealth/ core position to enhance growth", would of been better.

 

Buying futures and options were each side of the trade wins or loses is a gamble, hedging a position with a form of gambling is gambling!

 

Trying to educate people with your wealth of knowledge and expertise for free is admirable,as I have said before you have an exceptional talent,and thats the problem what is second nature to you is alien to most,but unless you are going to email them each time you trade as you trade or live workshop them, then by portraying trading/gambling/hedging as easy is akin to giving a drunk monkey a live revolver in a crowded bar.

 

Regards

 

ML.

[drbubb]

I have to agree and add in that by calling the thread "Beating Buy and Hold(with options and TAsignals)" wasn't the brightest of moves!

 

Maybe " Gambling with a portion of your wealth/ core position to enhance growth", would of been better.

 

Buying futures and options were each side of the trade wins or loses is a gamble, hedging a position with a form of gambling is gambling!

LOL

XshockX you too !

I think your inability to understand the value of options as a risk management tool is at the roots of this. Kindly leave this thread to those who want to discuss what is relevant here.

 

You and Pixel and Fexx can have your own thread to discuss why you think Physical is the only way to go

[fexx]

If you don't want to have any money in a stock-trading account, then just leave this thread alone.

 

Could you please point me to anywhere that I have said this or gave any indication that this was the case?

I have stock accounts and trade.

 

 

I'm so glad we cleared up all that nasty confusion and we can finally move forward.

 

Uh-oh, wait a minute.....

 

 

You and Pixel and Fexx can have your own thread to discuss why you think Physical is the only way to go

 

Bugger...

[drbubb]

I'm so glad we cleared up all that nasty confusion and we can finally move forward.

Uh-oh, wait a minute.....

Bugger...

Yes.

But that came only in reaction to a rather nasty remark:

 

I have to agree and add in that by calling the thread "Beating Buy and Hold(with options and TAsignals)" wasn't the brightest of moves!

 

Maybe " Gambling with a portion of your wealth/ core position to enhance growth", would of been better.

 

The sentences ( in italics ) is what inspired my comment.

 

He calls my activity here "gambling". Why?

Buying futures and options where each side of the trade wins or loses is a gamble, hedging a position with a form of gambling is gambling!

 

Huh?

What does that mean:

"Buying futures and options where each side of the trade wins or loses is a gamble"

 

I think he is saying that any use of Futures or Options is a gamble.

Well, let's discuss that on the other thread.

 

Do you want to start it, or shall I ?

=== === ===

 

(The new thread):

Is Trading the same thing as "Gambling" ?

How should Trading be regulated? How Taxed?

 

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index.php?showtopic=15550

 

I am happy to change the title, if it evolves in a different way.

 

ML, please join the discussion too.