The Breakthrough - Human thinking is changing

[drbubb]

"Do you expect your life to be improved by gaining knowledge of these "fringe" things?"

 

1) I really don't like lies/misinformation/deceit.

2) I stereotype most of these fringey things as lies/misinformation/deceit.

3) Even if it is all completely true, I don't see how understanding it makes my life any better.

 

Dr Bubb:

 

You won't change my mind on #1.

I'm not going to discuss #2 unless I see some merit in doing so...

#3 is the mystery. How do you expect your life to be improved by gaining knowledge of these "fringe" things?

Not just improved, but improved by more than the time it takes you to to research/understand them?

 

Perhaps you have more time than some, so have a lower value threshold. Or, perhaps you get a greater satisfaction from the act of research/understanding itself? Or, see genuine value that I and some others are missing.

If you don't like "lies/misinformation/deceit", then don't you think it is time to get

beyond the misinformation that is foised on us by the Mass Media ?

 

I can begin to improve my life, my future, and my planet in important and long term ways, by better understanding:

 

+ Who I am

+ Where I come from

 

The Mass Media can better control us by feeding us lies that help them to maintain their power structures.

 

The "Expensive healthcare... for dumbed down and brainwashed people" (see just above) is a good example of how powerful Doctors and Big Pharma uses a corrupted system to take more from Americans.

 

Only if we understand the power structures better, and who and how the elites benefit from them, can we begin to throw them off. They exist all over the place: in Healthcare, in the Military Industrial Complex, in the close relationship between the banksters and our politicians, in our extravagant use of energy, in our education system... the list goes on.

 

Seeing the mess for what it is, and helping others to hold their money and health as the system collapses or morphs is a key part of what GEI is all about. Would you have me give that up?

[drbubb]

Here are two wise older folk that you may think are far out in the fringe:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYwm-2ndWBg

 

AT their age, what do you think they hope to gain?

Do you doubt they are sharing their truth and wisdom?

 

Bob Dean calls Disclosure "the biggest story in human history."

If it is true, don't you think we need to know about it?

 

Dolores says, "I like David Icke, but I don't agree with much of what he has been saying recently. I think he has gone off the deep end." (She is not accepting everything - She has her own sources of information from her work.)

[id5]

...

And I may have read more science than many on this site, but it is not a barrier for me in my thinking.

 

Instead of spouting negativity, why not make one or two specific points? (I have made several here)

 

You are doing nothing to advanced your argument, which I understand now as nothing but prejudice.

 

The rational of my argument is that of your failure to both understand and then apply the basic logical test of hypothesise, test, record, evaluate, re-hypothesise...you missed the salient point that I made.

 

You fail to do to the scientific what you do in the finance instinctively, hypothesise, test, record, evaluate, rinse, wash, repeat...

 

Instead you stated that I sprout negativity, and indirectly that I have a barrier to my thinking and I am prejudiced. Yet at no time did you ask had I read the article, had I read others in the Fringe section. You did not seem to apply thought, you seemed to instinctively react. When I challenged you what you immediately did was to personally attack, just as people do when their belief is directly challenged.

[drbubb]

The rational of my argument is that of your failure to both understand and then apply the basic logical test of hypothesise, test, record, evaluate, re-hypothesise...you missed the salient point that I made.

 

You fail to do to the scientific what you do in the finance instinctively, hypothesise, test, record, evaluate, rinse, wash, repeat...

 

Instead you stated that I sprout negativity, and indirectly that I have a barrier to my thinking and I am prejudiced. Yet at no time did you ask had I read the article, had I read others in the Fringe section. You did not seem to apply thought, you seemed to instinctively react. When I challenged you what you immediately did was to personally attack, just as people do when their belief is directly challenged.

Excuse me for having an opinion different from YOURS !

 

I think I would say:

YOU are the one who has failed to: "hypothesise, test, record, evaluate" the available vast amount of material on these subjects.

 

You refuse to look at the evidence - and you know next to nothing of the subject. While I have spent countless hours examining the anecdotal evidence through various interviews and podcasts available on the web.

 

Do you claim to be more of an "expert"? :

That's funny, you are one who knows next to nothing on the subject, and you think that refusing to examine any of it makes you an "expert on logic" or some such nonsense. This exhibits the worst sort of blindness and stubborness.

 

Also: you have failed to muster a single point in favor of your argument, as I have requested you to do.

 

Why waste your time (and ours) posting on the thread, when you clearly have no interest in advancing the discussion?

[Kapouillax]

LOL

Tax evasion may be a worthy sport for independently-minded people in a country that wants to over-tax.

 

Yes, that's very much the idea. There's a separate 2nd economy going on there. Essentially, they get the best of both worlds : the benefits from the French system, and the money from the 2nd economy.

Of course, they take the benefits for granted... It's a very one-way thing.

 

What about the "high number of psychics"? Is that a genuine observation about Basque people?

 

If there are a number of them, it's definitely not around me

As a matter of fact, if anything, my impression is that they are more down to earth than the head in a skies.

 

Some think that Basques have "holy blood" rather than an alien origin. Is it discussed by them, I wonder?

 

Catholic religion is a big part of the culture, that's for sure.

The most likely theory about their origin is that they're among those early european settlers that got there before the indo european wave which managed to preserve their language thanks to their exceptional cultural protectionism. One thing is for sure, nowadays, cultural independentism is still strong (a lot speak Basque as their first language). Oh, and stubborn they are. And so am I, I suppose that's got to be genetic

 

Another idea I've read somewhere, is that they are the last Atlanteans. Now, that's definitely too fringe-y for me, but I thought you might be interested in that

[Kapouillax]

LOL

Tax evasion may be a worthy sport for independently-minded people in a country that wants to over-tax.

 

Yes, that's very much the idea. There's a separate 2nd economy going on there. Essentially, they get the best of both worlds : the benefits from the French system, and the money from the 2nd economy.

Of course, they take the benefits for granted... It's a very one-way thing.

 

What about the "high number of psychics"? Is that a genuine observation about Basque people?

 

If there are a number of them, it's definitely not around me

As a matter of fact, if anything, my impression is that they are more down to earth than the head in a skies.

 

Some think that Basques have "holy blood" rather than an alien origin. Is it discussed by them, I wonder?

 

Catholic religion is a big part of the culture, that's for sure.

The most likely theory about their origin is that they're among those early european settlers that got there before the indo european wave which managed to preserve their language thanks to their exceptional cultural protectionism. One thing is for sure, nowadays, cultural independentism is still strong (a lot speak Basque as their first language). Oh, and stubborn they are. And so am I, I suppose that's got to be genetic

 

Another idea I've read somewhere, is that they are the last Atlanteans. Now, that's definitely too fringe-y for me, but I thought you might be interested in that

[John Doe]

Excuse me for having an opinion different from YOURS !

 

You really don't get it do you.

 

It's not his opinion, or mine that you are dismissing (and getting cross about), it is the collected works of generations of real scientists that follow the scientific method. That's all there is to it.

 

It is either scientific, or it is philosophical (or it is totally whacko ).

 

If a theory does not conform to accepted scientific principles, then it is philosophical and we can all discuss it in that context.

 

That’s all there is to it. Simple!

[Erewhon888]

The following may be helpful for general discussions requiring critical thinking.

 

http://www.fallacies.ca/toc.htm

 

The contents at the above link include hyperlinks to expansion of each term summarised below.

Table of Contents

 

Fallacies of Distraction

 

.....False Dilemma: two choices are given when in fact there are three options

.....From Ignorance: because something is not known to be true, it is assumed to be false

.....Slippery Slope: a series of increasingly unacceptable consequences is drawn

.....Complex Question: two unrelated points are conjoined as a single proposition

Appeals to Motives in Place of Support

.....Appeal to Force: the reader is persuaded to agree by force

.....Appeal to Pity: the reader is persuaded to agree by sympathy

.....Consequences: the reader is warned of unacceptable consequences

.....Prejudicial Language: value or moral goodness is attached to believing the author

.....Popularity: a proposition is argued to be true because it is widely held to be true

Changing the Subject

.....Attacking the Person:

..........the person's character is attacked

..........the person's circumstances are noted

..........the person does not practise what is preached

.....Appeal to Authority:

..........the authority is not an expert in the field

..........experts in the field disagree

..........the authority was joking, drunk, or in some other way not being serious

.....Anonymous Authority: the authority in question is not named

.....Style Over Substance: the manner in which an argument (or arguer) is presented is felt to affect the truth of the conclusion

Inductive Fallacies

.....Hasty Generalization: the sample is too small to support an inductive generalization about a population

.....Unrepresentative Sample: the sample is unrepresentative of the sample as a whole

.....False Analogy: the two objects or events being compared are relevantly dissimilar

.....Slothful Induction: the conclusion of a strong inductive argument is denied despite the evidence to the contrary

.....Fallacy of Exclusion: evidence which would change the outcome of an inductive argument is excluded from consideration

Fallacies Involving Statistical Syllogisms

.....Accident: a generalization is applied when circumstances suggest that there should be an exception

.....Converse Accident : an exception is applied in circumstances where a generalization should apply

Causal Fallacies

.....Post Hoc: because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the other

.....Joint effect: one thing is held to cause another when in fact they are both the joint effects of an underlying cause

.....Insignificant: one thing is held to cause another, and it does, but it is insignificant compared to other causes of the effect

.....Wrong Direction: the direction between cause and effect is reversed

.....Complex Cause: the cause identified is only a part of the entire cause of the effect

Missing the Point

.....Begging the Question: the truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises

.....Irrelevant Conclusion: an argument in defense of one conclusion instead proves a different conclusion

.....Straw Man: the author attacks an argument different from (and weaker than) the opposition's best argument

Fallacies of Ambiguity

.....Equivocation: the same term is used with two different meanings

.....Amphiboly: the structure of a sentence allows two different interpretations

.....Accent: the emphasis on a word or phrase suggests a meaning contrary to what the sentence actually says

Category Errors

.....Composition: because the attributes of the parts of a whole have a certain property, it is argued that the whole has that property

.....Division: because the whole has a certain property, it is argued that the parts have that property

Non Sequitur

.....Affirming the Consequent: any argument of the form: If A then B, B, therefore A

.....Denying the Antecedent: any argument of the form: If A then B, Not A, thus Not B

.....Inconsistency: asserting that contrary or contradictory statements are both true

Syllogistic Errors

.....Fallacy of Four Terms: a syllogism has four terms

.....Undistributed Middle: two separate categories are said to be connected because they share a common property

.....Illicit Major: the predicate of the conclusion talks about all of something, but the premises only mention some cases of the term in the predicate

.....Illicit Minor: the subject of the conclusion talks about all of something, but the premises only mention some cases of the term in the subject

.....Fallacy of Exclusive Premises: a syllogism has two negative premises

.....Fallacy of Drawing an Affirmative Conclusion From a Negative Premise: as the name implies

.....Existential Fallacy: a particular conclusion is drawn from universal premises

Fallacies of Explanation

.....Subverted Support (The phenomenon being explained doesn't exist)

.....Non-support (Evidence for the phenomenon being explained is biased)

.....Untestability (The theory which explains cannot be tested)

.....Limited Scope (The theory which explains can only explain one thing)

.....Limited Depth (The theory which explains does not appeal to underlying causes)

.....Fallacies of Definition

.....Too Broad (The definition includes items which should not be included)

.....Too Narrow (The definition does not include all the items which shouls be included)

.....Failure to Elucidate (The definition is more difficult to understand than the word or concept being defined)

.....Circular Definition (The definition includes the term being defined as a part of the definition)

.....Conflicting Conditions (The definition is self-contradictory)

Logic Resources

 

References

 

For Educators

 

Copyright Notice

[drbubb]

Thanks for yet another list !

 

What is going on is:

 

+ The evidence for some of these "alternative ideas" is mainly anecdotal - or what is not anecdotal is virtually impossible to examine from where I sit

 

+ Plenty of folks - such as Wilcock have presented ideas backed by both science theory and scientific research. It is not my job to go and re-examine all the research that Wilcock (or anyone else) cites.

 

I am willing to discuss the ideas presented here, but am getting sick and tired of the Skeptics who have nothing to offer to the discussion. Only one poster* was honest enough to say, in effect: "I don't believe any of it, and won't bother to look deeper until I see more 'peers' believing it." Fair enough, I cannot tell him what to believe, or that he must spend his precious time researching controversies that may not interest him (however vital they may seem to me and others !)

 

I suspect that Mercury's reaction* is the factual reaction to the skeptics here. But several of them rap themselves in condescension, talk negatively about Wilcock's and the "alterntaive" ideas of others. Strangely, they seem to think that a list is an argument.

 

I SEE some BLIND PREJUDICE coming from those with a so-called scientific bent. They make poor arguments and fail the respond to the specific arguments that I have presented. Ironically, some of those posting lists of logic, are using far less logic than I have presented.

 

Their inability to muster a logical argument against any of Wilcock's ideas is very sad.

 

==== ====

 

*Mercury in post #48

[drbubb]

You really don't get it do you.

It's not his opinion, or mine that you are dismissing (and getting cross about), it is the collected works of generations of real scientists that follow the scientific method. That's all there is to it.

Sir, you fail to get it.

 

I am not rejecting anything, merely presenting some thoughts on some fresh and intriguing ideas from Mr Wilcock and others, which you seem to be incapable of discussing in without resorting to lectures and lists.

[drbubb]

Yes, that's very much the idea. There's a separate 2nd economy going on there. Essentially, they get the best of both worlds : the benefits from the French system, and the money from the 2nd economy.

Of course, they take the benefits for granted... It's a very one-way thing.

 

If there are a number of them, it's definitely not around me

As a matter of fact, if anything, my impression is that they are more down to earth than the head in a skies.

 

Catholic religion is a big part of the culture, that's for sure.

The most likely theory about their origin is that they're among those early european settlers that got there before the indo european wave which managed to preserve their language thanks to their exceptional cultural protectionism. One thing is for sure, nowadays, cultural independentism is still strong (a lot speak Basque as their first language). Oh, and stubborn they are. And so am I, I suppose that's got to be genetic

 

Another idea I've read somewhere, is that they are the last Atlanteans. Now, that's definitely too fringe-y for me, but I thought you might be interested in that

Thanks for that, K.

Maybe some make more of the blood type, than can really be justified.

 

The possible connection with Atlantis does not surprise me. I have heard it elsewhere before.

Someday, if we find Atlantis, we may learn more.

[John Doe]

Sir, you fail to get it.

 

I am not rejecting anything, merely presenting some thoughts on some fresh and intriguing ideas from Mr Wilcock and others, which you seem to be incapable of discussing in without resorting to lectures and lists.

 

OK, I give up.

 

So, want to buy some magic beans?

 

I'll swap you some for a cow

[Peace]

magic beans

 

you could be onto something

 

link

[bobbyald141]

DR Bubb,

 

Can I ask whether you believe there is any method, other than the scientific method, for assessing the world around us?

If so, what is that method?

[Peace]

what if some of the scientists are the gatekeepers and withhold information for profit - such as the inventions of Tesla, Rife and Reich

[Kapouillax]

The possible connection with Atlantis does not surprise me. I have heard it elsewhere before.

Someday, if we find Atlantis, we may learn more.

 

To be fair, I believe we already have found the Atlanteans : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption

 

Plato probably romanticised oral tales about those events and the then defunct Minoan civilisation.

[Peace]

some sleepers have woke up on this thread

 

[drbubb]

DR Bubb,

Can I ask whether you believe there is any method, other than the scientific method, for assessing the world around us?

If so, what is that method?

What do you think humans used before the "tyranny of scientists"?

 

It was a mixture of:

+ Experience (& anecdotal evidence)

+ Religion

+ Inherited tradition (including: historical experience, folklore, & some superstition)

 

AND Missing from this list is : "Intuition" (or one might say: "knowledge of the heart")

 

I am fairly sure you will be unhappy with this - especially "intuition", but what we are finding is some elements of Psychic knowledge, are slowly being validated by science. For example, the success of Remote Viewing in solving missing persons cases is fairly well known. What is less well-known is the use of RV in military and other applications. If you look at the work of Courtney XX, you will see how the scientific method is being applied to RV techniques.

[drbubb]

To be fair, I believe we already have found the Atlanteans : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption

Plato probably romanticised oral tales about those events and the then defunct Minoan civilisation.

EXCERPT:

"The Minoan eruption of Thera, also referred to as the Thera eruption or Santorini eruption, was a major catastrophic volcanic eruption with a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6 or 7 and a Dense-rock equivalent (DRE) of 60 cubic kilometres (14 cu mi),[1] which is estimated to have occurred in the mid second millennium BCE.[2] The eruption was one of the largest volcanic events on Earth in recorded history.[3][4][5] The eruption devastated the island of Thera (also called Santorini), including the Minoan settlement at Akrotiri, as well as communities and agricultural areas on nearby islands and on the coast of Crete.

 

The eruption seems to have inspired certain Greek myths[6] and may have caused turmoil in Egypt.[7][8] Additionally, it has been speculated that the Minoan eruption and the destruction of the city at Akrotiri provided the basis for or otherwise inspired Plato's story of Atlantis."

 

I think Atlantis was something far more important than a mis-remembered volcanic explosion.

Are you familiar with Edgar Cayce and his readings on past lives? If you are, you may know

that he had plenty to say about Atlantis.

[bobbyald141]

I take that reply to mean that you believe that there is an alternative to the scientific method and that that alternative is a combination of intuition, experience, religion etc.

 

Well here's the really great thing, it's very easy to watch your process in action.

There is no need for any tyrannical scientist to be present, you can do it yourself with a few friends and I guarantee you that if it's enlightenment your after you will just love the results.

 

Here's what you need to do:

Grab a pack of shuffled cards and get your friends to call on their intuition, gods, psychic powers etc. and name to top face down card.

Go through the whole pack and record the results.

The more times you do this the better and if you can get some really good psychics it'll work much better.

 

There is no trick.

You don't have to use playing cards - you could toss a coin for example.

You are personally in control through the whole process and any location/time is fine.

The results will be truely astonishing for you so please give it a go.

[John Doe]

what if some of the scientists are the gatekeepers and withhold information for profit - such as the inventions of Tesla, Rife and Reich

 

Sir, a true scientist publishes or dies! Their work is for all humanity. (They also want to show the world that they discovered it first )

 

It is not the true scientists that withhold information, nor use their inventions and discoveries for evil.

 

That job is reserved for the political and military masters!

 

some sleepers have woke up on this thread

 

Thanks Peace, it's good to hear someone has learnt something from our efforts

 

I'm also glad to see my hug has cheered you up and returned you to your happy peaceful self.

[John Doe]

EXCERPT:

"The Minoan eruption of Thera, also referred to as the Thera eruption or Santorini eruption, was a major catastrophic volcanic eruption with a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6 or 7 and a Dense-rock equivalent (DRE) of 60 cubic kilometres (14 cu mi),[1] which is estimated to have occurred in the mid second millennium BCE.[2] The eruption was one of the largest volcanic events on Earth in recorded history.[3][4][5] The eruption devastated the island of Thera (also called Santorini), including the Minoan settlement at Akrotiri, as well as communities and agricultural areas on nearby islands and on the coast of Crete.

 

The eruption seems to have inspired certain Greek myths[6] and may have caused turmoil in Egypt.[7][8] Additionally, it has been speculated that the Minoan eruption and the destruction of the city at Akrotiri provided the basis for or otherwise inspired Plato's story of Atlantis."

 

I think Atlantis was something far more important than a mis-remembered volcanic explosion.

Are you familiar with Edgar Cayce and his readings on past lives? If you are, you may know

that he had plenty to say about Atlantis.

 

Maybe he did, maybe it was real, maybe past lives are real, the difference is that the scientific theory is backed by evidence and not hearsay.

[drbubb]

Maybe he did, maybe it was real, maybe past lives are real, the difference is that the scientific theory is backed by evidence and not hearsay.

Science is used as a club by those in power/

Look at the controversy surrounding global warming.

 

And if you have an alternative energy system that you want to research which threatens the interests of big oil, who is going to fund your research and patent process?

[John Doe]

Science is used as a club by those in power/

Look at the controversy surrounding global warming.

 

And if you have an alternative energy system that you want to research which threatens the interests of big oil, who is going to fund your research and patent process?

 

Many of the alternative alternatives have been investigated and these investigations have been/are funded by tax payers.

 

It would definitely be an advantage for a major power to create new forms of energy nowadays, whereas, in the past with cheap oil there would have been an incentive for the oil co's to suppress info (if they could).

 

Technologies, such as cold fusion etc, have been investigated in depth by multiple groups and universities all around the world (paid for by the tax payer, as well as some companies) and, unfortunately, were found not to work.

 

Indeed, some of the more scientifically valid (i.e. theory understood well, and so really just engineering hurdles to overcome) like hot fusion (i.e. ITER of laser fusion for example), which offer potentially limitless safe clean energy, are being funded right now by multiple counties.

[LauraB]

 

It is either scientific, or it is philosophical (or it is totally whacko ).

 

Forget ISAs. For you dear JD I present the IPS: The Individual Polarity Shift account.

Ideal for those still seeing everything as totally three-dimensional; & black & white