GOLD

[drbubb]

You say that owning GLD has been less risky than owning gold futures, talk about stating the bleeding obvious! I have never said that owning any sort of paper gold trading vehicle is a good idea. The less risk that you talk about in an ETF is nowhere near the zero counterpart risk of owning physical metal.

 

Pouring scorn and insults on to those that have had the foresight to take themselves out of the corrupt fiat currency system just makes you look like a banker, which is going to make you very lonely on this site as selfish bankers are what the world is revolting against currently.

 

Categorising those that are accumulating physical metals as members of a cult is daft, exactly the same could be said about the day trading fanatics.

Don't be so blind, Pixel. Look in the mirror !

 

I don't abuse anyone for owning or holding Gold. I own gold, and encourage others to do the same. I help them to get in at the right time, and do not try to dupe people into buying randomly, or worse yet, buying at the top when the fears of being left behind are most intense.

 

The Gold cultists are the one who pile abuse on those who do not follow their example : they are the ones who "pour scourn and insults" on those who disagree, and follow the steps outlined in the Screwtape article. The writer of that article was the one who called them a cult. (But "if the shoe fits, wear it!")

 

I happen to agree that their behaviour fits that description (does your?). Do you really disagree with the Screwtape argument? If not, then Why should you care whether I own physical gold or not?

[drbubb]

Goldfinger wants to ridicule "paper bugs", who rely on fiat currencies

Yes, yes, yes. We even have a thread on it: http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index.php?showtopic=8312

But he does not see how deep and widespread the real vulnerabilities are.

It is not only CURRENCY that will be devalued,

It is cars, suburban houses, and almost everything that we use day-to-day in our heavily oil-dependent economy.

 

So much of this stuff may become useless when currency collapses, and our current wasteful way of living is over.

 

Those in the wring place may use or lose all their gold just to survive. If instead, you live in a different way, and in a different place you may suffer much less disruption, and Gold will be less essential for survival.

=== ===

 

I suggest you look at this:

A Letter from the Future - Richard Heinberg:

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index.php?showtopic=15921

[Pixel8r]

Don't be so blind, Pixel. Look in the mirror !

 

I don't abuse anyone for owning or holding Gold. I own gold, and encourage others to do the same. I help them to get in at the right time, and do not try to dupe people into buying randomly, or worse yet, buying at the top when the fears of being left behind are most intense.

 

The Gold cultists are the one who pile abuse on those who do not follow their example : they are the ones who "pour scourn and insults" on those who disagree, and follow the steps outlined in the Screwtape article. The writer of that article was the one who called them a cult. (But "if the shoe fits, wear it!")

 

I happen to agree that their behaviour fits that description (does your?). Do you really disagree with the Screwtape argument? If not, then Why should you care whether I own physical gold or not?

There you go again immediately, telling me "Don't be so blind, Pixel. Look in the mirror !"

 

You do ridicule people for buy and holding gold, I am sure I am not the only one who has noticed that trait in you.

 

I don't try to dupe people into buying gold at peaks. Can you point to any time that I have?

 

I don't agree with the screwtape argument that gold advocates are cultists, as I said above the same could be said about traders. Fanatical cult like behaviour is far different from encouraging the protection that gold and silver offer in this fiat financial crisis.

 

1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.The leader is not accountable to anyone.

 

There isn't one leader and the gold buyers that I have chatted with are always questioning the wisdom of what various pundits say.

 

2. Rational thought, questioning and dissent are discouraged or forbidden.

 

Again complete bollocks, there is loads of debate about how to approach things.

 

3. Members are encouraged to interact only with other group members. Thus, cult members are isolated from the outside world and any reality testing it might provide.

 

If that was the case why would I still keep putting myself through talking to you about things like this? Healthy debate is much more informative than just 'learning' one way of thinking.

 

4. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

 

Again complete claptrap, goldbugs are very open to talking about and to all sorts of people.

 

5. Cults, particularly in regard to their finances, are shrouded in secrecy.

 

There is no secrecy as far as I can see, loses are discussed very openly unlike loses by traders.

 

6. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

 

http://www.greenener...showtopic=15801

[drbubb]

LOL.

 

"Not one leader".

Okay, but watch what happens when I make a negative comment on the Gold thread about Sinclair, or GATA. Immediately, followers jump to his defense, instead of considering my arguments. Your cult has Leader(s) rather than a single one, but the effect is the same. They cannot be criticised, and are accountable to no one.

 

"Rational thought is accepted".

No it is not. My comments above are 100% rational, your are bordering on fantasy and hysteria:

EXAMPLES from above

1/

... excuse me if many don't want to listen to your sage advice. If only history was actually as easy to erase as certain threads.

2/

... talk about stating the bleeding obvious!

... exactly the same could be said about day-trading fanatics

3/

...just makes you look like a banker, which is going to make you very lonely on this site as selfish bankers are what the world is revolting against currently.

(more examples could be found if I went back further)

 

"Members can interact with others" / "... we are not elitists"

Not at all? If someone happens to own "fiat" currencies, they are treated like leppers, and called "Paper Bugs." Much as anyone who owns property is abused on HPC. You just called me "a banker" as a term of derision, and called my selfish (while everything I do on the site is the reverse, sharing my hard-earned research for free and supporting a website that recently lost its Google ads because someone posted "copywrited material" (and it wasn't me.)

 

"No Secrecy."

I haven't see much of this, but there is certain jargon that Gold "purists" prefer, and that is off-putting to those who are not regulars

 

"Not preoccupied with bringing in new members."

You are rather loose with the facts here! How many times have you come here recruiting new members for 24K?

 

I am afraid your argument against behaving like a cult are pretty weak, when examined

[drbubb]

You say that owning GLD has been less risky than owning gold futures, talk about stating the bleeding obvious! I have never said that owning any sort of paper gold trading vehicle is a good idea. The less risk that you talk about in an ETF is nowhere near the zero counterpart risk of owning physical metal.

haha.

I set you up there. I knew you would come back with that.

 

Buying Gold futures can be a first step to obtaining physicals, since all you need to do is take delivery.

 

Why do so few people do it- ie take delivery?

They don't want to face the risk of holding physicals and needing to store it.

 

One thing I can guarantee to you is this:

From 5 years ago to today, people have done better holding GLD than physicals, for two reasons:

 

+ They have had to bear less storage cost, at least for the average large gold holder, and

+ They have not had any Gold stolen, or lost.

 

We don't hear much about it, but there are many anecdotes of people who have been robbed of their gold, and put into physical danger for having gold on their premises. That type of risk mat well INCREASE in an uncertain future, and I certainly would not want my neighbors to think I was holding physical gold, especially if I was living in a small village.

[Pixel8r]

haha.

I set you up there. I knew you would come back with that.

 

Buying Gold futures can be a first step to obtaining physicals, since all you need to do is take delivery.

 

Why do so few people do it- ie take delivery?

They don't want to face the risk of holding physicals and needing to store it.

Why don't you ask those that did take delivery of their gold from futures contracts purchased via MFG, they held warehouse receipts for that gold and still found out that it was lost to JPM as it was somehow still included in MGF's assets.

 

Using any sort of leveraged paper vehicle to purchase physical PM's in this financial crisis is very risky, that has been proved numerous times but still you refuse to notice it.

 

 

One thing I can guarantee to you is this:

From 5 years ago to today, people have done better holding GLD than physicals, for two reasons:

 

+ They have had to bear less storage cost, at least for the average large gold holder, and

+ They have not had any Gold stolen, or lost.

 

We don't hear much about it, but there are many anecdotes of people who have been robbed of their gold, and put into physical danger for having gold on their premises. That type of risk mat well INCREASE in an uncertain future, and I certainly would not want my neighbors to think I was holding physical gold, especially if I was living in a small village.

I would like my money back on your guarantee.

 

The storage costs for physical gold via goldmoney is 0.18% per year, your gold is stored in a top vault operator VIA-MAT and is also insured and audited. Your gold can be sold back at spot whenever you like for no cost.

 

Here is a chart which shows the GLD performance against the gold price for the last 3 years (sorry I don't subscribe so can't go back to 5 years). You will notice that the price is slowly moving away from the real spot price, I would imagine this is to cover some of the cost involved in the running of the ETF. There would also be a fee and spread when you came to sell, unlike above.

 

What is it that they are always saying about past investment results? I truly think at some point during this gold bull run that the GLD and it's investors will come very much unstuck. It just strikes me that there is something very wrong about the fact that the two biggest shorts in the markets, HSBC in gold and JPM in silver, are also the entities that run the two biggest ETF's GLD & SLV.

 

Anyway I have had enough of going over old ground again, it appears nothing changes in bubba world.

 

[drbubb]

The storage costs for physical gold via goldmoney is 0.18% per year, your gold is stored in a top vault operator VIA-MAT and is also insured and audited. Your gold can be sold back at spot whenever you like for no cost.

You are ignoring the massive spread that GM takes on buying and selling gold.

 

I suppose if you hold for at least a year or two, it is bearable. But you cannot effectively trade on the spreads the GM charges, less your timing is very good. I have traded once or two at GM, but now I mostly just hold Gold and Silver there.

 

I am not saying that GLD cannot come unstuck. That is possible. I mostly use GLD options, since they are very liquid, and spreads are low.

 

When I want a Gold etf to hold, I use the HK-stored Gold etf: HK:3081 (i think it is),

or PHYS, or a new one: MNT.t.

 

I don;t anyone is expecting any of those to blow up. However, "Anything can happen", I suppose. For me, I do not want physical metal in my small flat, and we have only a limited amount of space in our Safety deposit box at the bank. GM is something I use, but where trading is a possibility, I prefer the "safer" etfs backed up by real physical gold stored outside the USA.

[Pixel8r]

You are ignoring the massive spread that GM takes on buying and selling gold.

 

I suppose if you hold for at least a year or two, it is bearable. But you cannot effectively trade on the spreads the GM charges, less your timing is very good. I have traded once or two at GM, but now I mostly just hold Gold and Silver there.

Why do you always need to be so misleading, the commission for buying gold via GM can hardly be described as massive and there is only a fee on buying and not on selling, where as on the ETF's there would be a spread on both transactions.

 

The buying fee can be made back in less than one day by buying at the right time. I often buy at PM fix around options expiry time each month and the fee is often made up before the end of the day is up. But then I am not about trading, I am more about accumulation.

 

 

Here are the current buying fees;

 

[Kapouillax]

 

From 5 years ago to today, people have done better holding GLD than physicals, for two reasons:

 

 

In UK at least, physical gold ownership seems to me like more tax efficient.

Also, holding GLD when you live in GBP means you're depending on the USD <=> GBP exchange.

 

That's why I "hold" physical in GM and BV.

 

But, probably there are a lot of things I don't know about, so what would you do, DrBubb, if you wanted to hold gold but were living in GBP?

[lyb]

In UK at least, physical gold ownership seems to me like more tax efficient.

Also, holding GLD when you live in GBP means you're depending on the USD <=> GBP exchange.

 

That's why I "hold" physical in GM and BV.

 

But, probably there are a lot of things I don't know about, so what would you do, DrBubb, if you wanted to hold gold but were living in GBP?

Buy GBS perhaps in LSE ?

[Kapouillax]

Buy GBS perhaps in LSE ?

 

Thanks Neel, that looks very interesting!

 

Edit: thanks to your pointer, I've also found those:

- PHGP

- PHSP

[Plastic Elastic]

[...]

The buying fee can be made back in less than one day by buying at the right time. I often buy at PM fix around options expiry time each month and the fee is often made up before the end of the day is up. [...]

That is a very interesting piece of information I was actually not aware of, so many thanks for that!

 

Are these the dates you are looking at? It appears that they are not concurrent with stock option expiry dates.

CME gold options expiry dates

[drbubb]

Why do you always need to be so misleading, the commission for buying gold via GM can hardly be described as massive and there is only a fee on buying and not on selling, where as on the ETF's there would be a spread on both transactions.

 

The buying fee can be made back in less than one day by buying at the right time. I often buy at PM fix around options expiry time each month and the fee is often made up before the end of the day is up. But then I am not about trading, I am more about accumulation.

 

 

Here are the current buying fees;

 

Pixel,

A 2.74% fee can only be described as Massive.

 

I pay $8 at Fidelity, and maybe 0.25-0.50% at my other broker. So GM's fee is many times that.

 

When was the last time we saw a 2.74% move in one day? It is pretty rare, maybe 2-3 times a year, if that. I cannot imagine paying such big commissions in my normal trading. In fact, sometimes the whole options premium I pay is less than 2.74% of the underlying contract. Very often, in fact.

[frizzers]

That's the good thing about that buyer's fee. It stops you trading.

[drbubb]

In UK at least, physical gold ownership seems to me like more tax efficient.

Also, holding GLD when you live in GBP means you're depending on the USD <=> GBP exchange.

 

That's why I "hold" physical in GM and BV.

 

But, probably there are a lot of things I don't know about, so what would you do, DrBubb, if you wanted to hold gold but were living in GBP?

First, I would familiarise myself with the Tax policies.

[warpig]

DrBubb you're losing members and traffic on this website because you continue to goad the gold bulls that took refuge here from HPC, why are you doing this? This is like self harming... The "buy and hold" ethos is you stand a 0% chance of getting trapped in a paper trade when the system blows up, your methodology doesn't offer that guarantee, you're part of the system we opted out of.

 

Are "buy and hold" gold bulls and their ideas welcome here or not?

 

 

[Kapouillax]

First, I would familiarise myself with the Tax policies.

 

Indeed, in your situation owning GLD certainly is better than owning physical, but, for instance, in mine as a UK resident, physical is a better option (at least, in the perspective of owning it long term...)

[geisaver]

In UK at least, physical gold ownership seems to me like more tax efficient.

Also, holding GLD when you live in GBP means you're depending on the USD <=> GBP exchange.

 

That's why I "hold" physical in GM and BV.

 

But, probably there are a lot of things I don't know about, so what would you do, DrBubb, if you wanted to hold gold but were living in GBP?

 

I think the tax issue is very important. It's no good being right about a rise in metal prices if they are going to steal it from you via tax.

I've just finished reading Currency Wars by James Rickards and although he predicts a huge rise in the Gold price if there was a return to a Gold standard, he also suggests there could be a 90% tax.

If this was applied when you sold e.g. allocated or physical, the profit is taken away or you risk selling on the black market and having it stolen.

 

Swapping metals at GM can negate CGT but what if it was just a blanket tax on any sale outside of CGT or even confiscation of say London Gold?

 

Therefore I've been wondering if another approach is to channel money into ISA's, in small amounts spread across several firms for FSCS reasons (TD thread ), to buy metal streamers. ISA's are CGT free so if the metal prices rose wouldn't the shares rise proportionally but you escape any increase in a tax on metal sales?

 

Obviously there are risks investing in individual firms, their mines might get nationalised if prices rocketed up, etc. but if it's a streamer with mines spread about it reduces some of the risk.

Another consideration is the currency rate if buying international shares. If you expect GBP to do poorly and are proved correct, you profit more.

 

Or you could go for a fund that that invests in miners.

 

Any thoughts?

[drbubb]

DrBubb you're losing members and traffic on this website because you continue to goad the gold bulls that took refuge here from HPC, why are you doing this? This is like self harming... The "buy and hold" ethos is you stand a 0% chance of getting trapped in a paper trade when the system blows up, your methodology doesn't offer that guarantee, you're part of the system we opted out of.

 

Are "buy and hold" gold bulls and their ideas welcome here or not?

We always lost people - that's in the nature of chatboards - Natural attrition : people move on after a while.

 

The problem is, the MANUAL sign-up makes it more difficult to replace those who are departing. I could allow self-sign in, like most sites have. But last time we had that, we were overwhelmed by spamsters and the moderators nearly revolved, so I had to turn it off. So I had to apply the manual sign in. I personally sign in every new member, after I receive an email. The need to send the email puts people off from joining.

 

The result is, we have a healthy number of hits, and many lurkers, but a gradual decline in active posters. The unfortunate side effect has been a shrinking number of interesting new threads are started.

 

Giving in to the Gold cult, and allowing them to completely dominate the website, will not change this trend. It might even accelerate the attrition.

 

Thank goodness, a number of the new people that I have signed in are becoming valued posters here, and that is keeping the site alive and healthy.

 

"Buy and Hold bulls" - who I sometimes call "Gold Purists" are certainly welcome, and so are Gold bears, and Gold traders. Anyone is, so long as they respect other posters, and resist abuse and other destructive close-minded behavior.

[drbubb]

Indeed, in your situation owning GLD certainly is better than owning physical, but, for instance, in mine as a UK resident, physical is a better option (at least, in the perspective of owning it long term...)

That could be true, and would make perfect sense. I don't think a UK tax residence would stop me from trading. It is also an effective means of controlling price risk. But I might trade less in that environment.

[warpig]

Then we agree, so can you please stop trying to convert "buy and hold bulls" in to day traders and respect their views. Suggesting we're a member of a cult shows zero respect.

 

"Buy and Hold bulls" - who I sometimes call "Gold Purists" are certainly welcome, and so are Gold bears, and Gold traders. Anyone is, so long as they respect other posters, and resist abuse and other destructive close-minded behavior.

 

 

[Kapouillax]

0% chance of getting trapped in a paper trade when the system blows up, your methodology doesn't offer that guarantee, you're part of the system we opted out of.

 

You're being unfair, warpig. Whatever Bubb may in essence say, is to be prepared. The "method" is just not to put all your eggs in the same basket.

 

As far as I know, the current paper trading system didn't blow up and is not 100% guaranteed to.

As far as I know, the gold isn't 100% sure of losing its intrinsic value wrt fiat money.

 

We may see either, or a range of possibility in between.

 

I think owning physical and paper counterparts to hedge their value *in case* doesn't mean you sell all your physical (in fact it's up to you as to how much you want to retain). And it could mean you can get more physical as you build up. And either way it goes, you can retain some of the benefit. But that's just my view, and I think DrBubb to have opened my mind to these tools.

 

By going 100% one direction, you take a gamble. You may be right. Or not.

 

DrBubb warns you take risks.

People take offense at the "evil trader" who uses the corrupted system.

DrBubb also sometimes gets a bit "enthusiastic" and provokes (cf. renaming beating buy and hold thread)

DrBubb also has a view that could be disconnected from our realities. In fact, we all have a different experience of life and have different needs. Pure B&H for some, pure trading for others, and a mix of those to those who think it makes sense....

[drbubb]

Then we agree, so can you please stop trying to convert "buy and hold bulls" in to day traders and respect their views. Suggesting we're a member of a cult shows zero respect.

I am not trying to convert anyone. If anything the purists are trying to convert me, or at least to shut me up.

 

I will not allow anyone to turn GEI into a cult website. And, so long as our B&H-friendly members do not behave as a cult, they are safe here, and I am happy to have them.

[Pixel8r]

When was the last time we saw a 2.74% move in one day? It is pretty rare, maybe 2-3 times a year, if that. I cannot imagine paying such big commissions in my normal trading. In fact, sometimes the whole options premium I pay is less than 2.74% of the underlying contract. Very often, in fact.

We see moves of that sort very often particularly at options expiries, which is all part of the gold cartels actions to screw the paper traders. Patient physical accumulators have come to recognise these movements and take advantage of physical metal being on sale, which will be the eventual down fall of the cartel.

 

I am not talking about 2.74% up moves in one day, I am talking about moves of more than that from low point to high point in one day. Everyone knows there is a 2% rule enforced by the cartel on gold. I also buy a lot of silver and there are many days when the movements are far more than that, over 5% a lot of days.

 

This is my last message here again as I feel you are deliberately saying things in an attempt to get me to post my knowledge. I am sure that if you were half as clever as you make out you will also have seen the movements I am talking about and the above will not be news to you. I have better things to do than to continually defend my position to rude goadings.

 

 

[drbubb]

By going 100% one direction, you take a gamble. You may be right. Or not.

 

DrBubb warns you take risks.

People take offense at the "evil trader" who uses the corrupted system.

DrBubb also sometimes gets a bit "enthusiastic" and provokes (cf. renaming beating buy and hold thread)

DrBubb also has a view that could be disconnected from our realities. In fact, we all have a different experience of life and have different needs. Pure B&H for some, pure trading for others, and a mix of those to those who think it makes sense....

"People take offense at the "evil trader" who uses the corrupted system."

 

I am not taking offense, since you may not mean that. But a sentence like that is straight from the Gold B&H cult paybook, don't you think?

 

"DrBubb also sometimes gets a bit "enthusiastic" and provokes"

 

By trying to Beat B&H? That would only bother a cultist, I reckon. Why shouldnt a normal reasonable person want to watch my trading and see how I get on? They might even learn something useful about market timing if they see me getting it right, as I did.