warpig Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 The problem is, all of these bullion companies bank with someone and are as prone to liquidity/credit problems the same as any normal business, what their business is, is largely irrelevant IMO, they still have to pay employees, hosting fees, computer systems, rent/commercial mortgages etc... etc... The other side of the transaction is of course, I have to be able to sell in case my position takes a turn for the worst, IMO when it is not in hand the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. If my bank has a problem then this just adds to the complexity. This in my mind is an overly complicated process with too many volatile variables. Well they could always invade Switzerland under operation 'Gold Freedom'. In the event of a confiscation order, I would rather have gold in a Swiss vault protected by Swiss law and sovereignty, than worry about a jail sentence because I have it under my mattress. People who have never broken the law should think hard about how they will really act in such an event. Did most Americans turn in thier gold; if so why? But then I'm a big BV/GM fan, I prefer the liquidity and margin they offer over coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mad Hatter Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 I think you’re right, but, Swap ‘Gold’ for ‘Uranium that can be used by Alqaeda to make dirty bombs for use against the UK and her allies’ Does it matter that your uranium is in Switzerland? Sorry, the link to www.uraniumvault.com seems to be down. I don't think it is legal for citizens to own uranium. It is highly toxic as well as weakly radioactive. If you can show me evidence that ordinary citizens have ever been entitled to own uranium, I'll concede the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pluto Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Sorry, it's taken me a while to compose this, so these arguments may have already been covered. I think this is an important discussion, so let's take this a bit further. Perhaps other people more knowledgeable than me could chip in. Physical Seizure The physical gold is not held by BV, but by VIA MAT, which is a Swiss company. VIA MAT audits the gold and BV publish these daily audits on their web site. BV could tell the UK government that I have gold (as do a lot of individuals who are considerably wealthier and probably more influential than me). But can the Government get hold of the gold? It isn't held in London but in a sovereign state with a long history of armed neutrality. You can't just wander into VIA MAT and say can we please have some of the gold in your vaults that belongs to some private individuals from the UK. The economy of Switzerland is dependent on its banking system. What do you think allowing the UK to confiscate their gold from under their noses would do to their reputation? Do you not think it likely that the Swiss would tell the UK to take a hike? In which case, is the UK going to invade in order to recover this gold? On this basis, I would discount physical seizure of Swiss-held gold as a possible option. Basically, if your gold is in Switzerland, the UK government cannot physically get hold of it. If your gold is held in the UK, then the UK government could physically seize it. However, the situation would have to be pretty dire before that would happen, bordering on a state of emergency. Not impossible, though. If your gold is held in the US, then the US government did legislate against holding private gold in 1933. However, the instances of actual seizure were very few and were all within the US. I think the biggest haul was from a non-US citizen on the basis of tax-evasion. Many people surrendered their gold at the official price, but many didn't (numbers presumably unknown). Liquidation If physical seizure isn't possible, the question then becomes whether the UK government could possibly force BV or me to liquidate my holdings in Zurich and repatriate the money. I guess this isn't impossible but is it likely? Again, this approach would only be possible if legal property rights to own gold bullion were outlawed in this country. I suppose, in extremis, the government could arrest me if I refused to comply. Well, if people go to jail for not paying council tax, I can imagine being prepared to go to jail for the right to own gold. Would I be the first Auric martyr? Before this happens, I would look out for articles in which gold bugs are demonised as: Hoarding wealth Non-patriotic Bringing down the financial system People of a certain race mentioned frequently in the Bible Terrorists They can do whatever they want as they are all in the same club. Keep your bullion safe and close by. All other "fools-gold" is someone else's promise to deliver. Exhibit 1: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/206...h-and-guns.html Exhibit 2: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/Sto...7897&page=1 Exhibit 3: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/25510 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mad Hatter Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 They can do whatever they want as they are all in the same club. Keep your bullion safe and close by. All other "fools-gold" is someone else's promise to deliver. Exhibit 1: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/206...h-and-guns.html I think I've already mentioned that physical seizure by the UK government is possible with UK held assets. But I see it as extremely unlikely that the Swiss government would ruin their reputation as a safe haven to do the same thing. Exhibit 2: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/Sto...7897&page=1 Exhibit 3: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/25510 Yes, I agree that the US tends to be more intolerant. Ultimately, having your gold close to you could also make it easier to separate from you by persons other than the government in ways which could be considerably less pleasant. In summary, absolute safety is impossible to guarantee, only relative safety. And you can't take it with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pluto Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Yes, I agree that the US tends to be more intolerant. Ultimately, having your gold close to you could also make it easier to separate from you by persons other than the government in ways which could be considerably less pleasant. In summary, absolute safety is impossible to guarantee, only relative safety. An you can't take it with you! The Swiss "safe haven" is only safe because the western world (or USA) says it is. The Swiss banks are the very LAST place I would have any of my assets when the crap starts to fly. We are about to go into unchartered waters; what worked before will probably no longer work in the future. Ultimately, having your gold close to you could also make it easier to separate from you by persons other than the government in ways which could be considerably less pleasant. At that stage we have far more pressing things to worry about than accumulated wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziknik Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Sorry, the link to www.uraniumvault.com seems to be down. I don't think it is legal for citizens to own uranium. It is highly toxic as well as weakly radioactive. If you can show me evidence that ordinary citizens have ever been entitled to own uranium, I'll concede the point. I was about to conceded that you and Bimble had exhausted my argument, but you’ve gone and proved my point for me. The Government don’t want me to have uranium in Switzerland and therefore I am unable to do so. Sorry, the link to www.Bullionuraniumvault.com seems to be down. I don't think it is legal for citizens to own golduranium. It is highly toxicterrorist currency as well as weakly radioactiveimmoral . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtfulDodger Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Modest tick up today 1M lease rates http://www.kitco.com/charts/g_leaserates.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sid Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 I was about to conceded that you and Bimble had exhausted my argument, but you’ve gone and proved my point for me. The Government don’t want me to have uranium in Switzerland and therefore I am unable to do so. Sorry, the link to www.Bullionuraniumvault.com seems to be down. I don't think it is legal for citizens to own golduranium. It is highly toxicterrorist currency as well as weakly radioactiveimmoral . I thought thats what you meant but some took it too literally Anyway loved the way you proved your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel8r Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Possibly not looking at the long term, but I want out of BV. I have been mulling it over for a few months now and I have been waiting for my moment... This seem like that moment... I have to wait for my money to re-appear out of BV first anyway, so rather now than when the volatility increases. If I get nervous I will take a little longer getting my money to the dealer for my order if you know what I mean. Hasn't Ker's TA recently suggested this aswell? I have my main stash in GM, play a bit in BV and also have a few coins. Agree BV is the riskiest of the bunch. I wouldn't worry to much about what Ker predicts, silver was supposed to go £6.60 on Wednesday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mad Hatter Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 I was about to conceded that you and Bimble had exhausted my argument, but you’ve gone and proved my point for me. The Government don’t want me to have uranium in Switzerland and therefore I am unable to do so. Sorry, the link to www.Bullionuraniumvault.com seems to be down. I don't think it is legal for citizens to own golduranium. It is highly toxicterrorist currency as well as weakly radioactiveimmoral . My point was that the uranium argument doesn't really hold water as I'm pretty sure that Uranium is not something that ordinary citizens are allowed to hold (or ever have been). Conversely, gold isn't a poison and currently, it is legal to hold gold in the UK and Sovs and Brits are legal tender. So to get to the position where my BV holdings are at risk, the UK government would have to declare the holding of bullion illegal. In which case, BV gold and gold at home are both equally illegal. However, gold at home could also be removed by the scallies/geezers/chavs. Gold at home can also be seized by the goon squad. Seizure of gold in Zurich would destroy the credibility of the Swiss government and Switzerland as a safe haven, a role it has carefully nurtured since the Middle Ages and codified with the Swiss Banking Act of 1934. Under the principle of bank secrecy, privacy is statutorily enforced, with Swiss law strictly limiting any information shared with third parties, including tax authorities, foreign governments or even Swiss authorities, except when requested by a Swiss judge's subpoena. This law only permits a bank to share information with others in cases of severe criminal acts, such as identifying a terrorist's bank account. Any bank employee violating a client's privacy is punished quite severely by law. Again, not impossible, but highly unlikely. Would a Swiss government that carried out such an action survive for long? Yes, I agree that we are in uncharted waters and there are no options that are completely safe and foolproof. I'm in with BV but I am also considering a personal holding as well (if I can get hold of it). I think we can both agree that the situation would be close to martial law/dictatorship before things get that bad. But then again, the gold price might collapse and we'll be sitting around like a bunch of numpties with a load of dotcom shares. I'll really be in the doghouse then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpig Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 No disrespect to ker or anyone else who's heavily into TA, but I'm a fundamentals man myself, I tend to rely on my instinct which is what brought me here in the first place. I'll be back in by Wednesday I reckon, the money is already out of BV, let's hope nothing too positive for gold happens in the mean time... I have my main stash in GM, play a bit in BV and also have a few coins. Agree BV is the riskiest of the bunch. I wouldn't worry to much about what Ker predicts, silver was supposed to go £6.60 on Wednesday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziknik Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 ... Yes, I agree that we are in uncharted waters and there are no options that are completely safe and foolproof. I'm in with BV but I am also considering a personal holding as well (if I can get hold of it). I think we can both agree that the situation would be close to martial law/dictatorship before things get that bad. But then again, the gold price might collapse and we'll be sitting around like a bunch of numpties with a load of dotcom shares. I'll really be in the doghouse then! I agree with a lot of your points (and Bimble). I use BV and GM myself, so its comforting to know you guys think theres a chance we can keep it in a confiscation event. Protect yourself as much as you can. Labour have form when it come to gold. http://24carat.co.uk/collectingcoinsframe.html Restrictions for UK Residents Between April 27th 1966 and March 31st 1971, it was illegal for any UK resident to buy gold coins, or to continue to hold more than four gold coins previously owned, with the exception of antique gold coins dated before 1838. This was introduced without warning under a provision of the Exchange Control Act of 1947 (Statutory Instrument No. 438 of 1966). We believe it was a rather pathetic and futile attempt by the then Labour government to shore up a creaking sterling exchange rate. Similar restrictions are still enforced by a few third world or third rate nations nowadays. There are now no restrictions on UK residents owning or acquiring gold coins. BTW, We didnt elect the Prime Minister and hes doing some pretty crazy things. The situation is possibly not far off a dictatorship. We might not have an election every again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wren Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Seizure of gold in Zurich would destroy the credibility of the Swiss government and Switzerland as a safe haven, a role it has carefully nurtured since the Middle Ages and codified with the Swiss Banking Act of 1934. Again, not impossible, but highly unlikely. Would a Swiss government that carried out such an action survive for long? Yes, I agree that we are in uncharted waters and there are no options that are completely safe and foolproof. I'm in with BV but I am also considering a personal holding as well (if I can get hold of it). I think we can both agree that the situation would be close to martial law/dictatorship before things get that bad. But then again, the gold price might collapse and we'll be sitting around like a bunch of numpties with a load of dotcom shares. I'll really be in the doghouse then! I also believe that the Swiss would be loath to destroy an important part of their economy. About "confiscation" and BV. I own less than 400 oz so could never take delivery of an LMBA bar. So say the ownership of gold bullion is made illegal. At most the authorities could force me to sell in which case I would have only fiat (euros in my case). What then? Are they going to steal my euros? They get capital gains tax on any gains anyway. The great model is the 1933 "confiscation" in the USA. (I insist on inverted commas as it was forced sale in fact, and the term "confiscation" in everyday usage has quite different connotations). The purpose then was to enable an inflation of the currency which was backed by gold (without too many ordinary folks gaining). This does not apply anywhere in the world today. What I'm getting at is why? Even if a gold-backed currency were introduced (which I still have strong doubts about happening) is it really essential for them to own all the gold? Most of it is jewellery anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwizzie Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 6 hr goldshow on fsn this weekend. 3,4,5 & 6 available on itunes now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich6400 Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 About "confiscation" and BV. I own less than 400 oz so could never take delivery of an LMBA bar. And if we club together? between us we might just get to 400 oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azazel Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 I see that CID are now selling some platinum coins. http://coininvestdirect.com/main.php?a=11&id=292 they are charging 19% VAT which is odd. Surely it should be 17.5% and reduced to 15% on Monday. I also notice that silver is VAT free if shipped to Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatesy Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 6 hr goldshow on fsn this weekend. 3,4,5 & 6 available on itunes now You can't say JP hasn't been busy ! I didn't realise you got a preview on I Tunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwizzie Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 You can't say JP hasn't been busy ! I didn't realise you got a preview on I Tunes. I dont think it does usually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziknik Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 ... I also notice that silver is VAT free if shipped to Spain. It’s not VAT free. CID can’t ship silver to Spain anymore. This item is not available for shipment to the selected Ship To country Spain. We have reached the limit of VAT liable goods as per Article 34 of EC directive 2006/112/EC, VAT directive. Please chose a different Ship To country. EDIT: That's not my typo. That’s direct copy & paste from CID Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chazza Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 6 hr goldshow on fsn this weekend. 3,4,5 & 6 available on itunes now 6 hours..... Not sure I can face it, although I am sure one of the hours will be very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziknik Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 I've found a coin shop that has Kruggerands £20 cheaper than CID but strangely more expensively in dollars than CID. Free delivery as well. www.scoinshop.com anyone know much about it? They’ve sold out according to the website. The price might not be valid. I’ve never heard of them before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicejim Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 I wouldn't worry to much about what Ker predicts, silver was supposed to go £6.60 on Wednesday! It did! Wasn't Ker predicting $6.60? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicejim Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Boring day today for POG. Forget the rockets, it needs one of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wren Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 And if we club together? between us we might just get to 400 oz Tosser. I hope to think that different countries wouldn't go so far as to enforce transnational collective theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWIW Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Was that called for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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