GOLD

[Pixel8r]

If a director of a company was to do this then it would be tax evasion.

 

It is the same as if your company brought 10 x £100 ‘face value’ Britannia coins for £500 x 10 = £5,000 and paid a director or employee the ‘face value’ as remuneration i.e. £500. The actual market value of the benefit is taken for the calculation not the’ face value’ or a suggest value.

 

This is not what I was suggesting. I own my own VAT registered company and am thinking of talking to my accountant about shifting some of my company reserves into silver. I think, but am not sure, that my company can buy silver reclaim the VAT, then when the company wants to sell it charge VAT. I will check this out and report back...

[ziknik]

This is not what I was suggesting. I own my own VAT registered company and am thinking of talking to my accountant about shifting some of my company reserves into silver. I think, but am not sure, that my company can buy silver reclaim the VAT, then when the company wants to sell it charge VAT. I will check this out and report back...

 

Yes, your company can do this. And the silver can be in your hands for use if TSHTF.

 

But I am not sure you will gain anything if government/society does not break down as your company will need to pay corporation taxes on profits when the coins are sold.

 

EDIT:

 

Consider 3 scenarios

 

Your Company makes £10,000 profit and pays 21% Corp Tax. This leaves £7,900

 

1. If the Company buys coins for say £10 each, the Company has 790 Coins (ignoring the VAT because the Company is going to reclaim it)

2. If the Company pays you dividends and you are not a higher rate tax payer, you have £7,900 to buy coins at £10+VAT = 686 Coins

3. If the Company pays you dividends and you are a higher rate tax payer, you have (£7,900 minus 25% tax =) £5,925 to buy coins at £10+VAT = 515 Coins

 

Now coins are selling on ebay for £100

 

1. 790 coins = £79,000. Minus the VAT you owe to the tax man = £68,696. Minus 21% Corp Tax = £54,270. Assuming you are a higher rate tax payer, you lose 25% on the dividends = £40,702 in your hand

2. 686 coins = £68,600 in your hand

3. 515 coins = £51,500 in your hand

 

Looks like you are better off buying the coins your self.

[Pixel8r]

Yes, your company can do this. And the silver can be in your hands for use if TSHTF.

 

But I am not sure you will gain anything if government/society does not break down as your company will need to pay corporation taxes on profits when the coins are sold.

 

EDIT:

 

Consider 3 scenarios

 

Your Company makes £10,000 profit and pays 21% Corp Tax. This leaves £7,900

 

1. If the Company buys coins for say £10 each, the Company has 790 Coins (ignoring the VAT because the Company is going to reclaim it)

2. If the Company pays you dividends and you are not a higher rate tax payer, you have £7,900 to buy coins at £10+VAT = 686 Coins

3. If the Company pays you dividends and you are a higher rate tax payer, you have (£7,900 minus 25% tax =) £5,925 to buy coins at £10+VAT = 515 Coins

 

Now coins are selling on ebay for £100

 

1. 790 coins = £79,000. Minus the VAT you owe to the tax man = £68,696. Minus 21% Corp Tax = £54,270. Assuming you are a higher rate tax payer, you lose 25% on the dividends = £40,702 in your hand

2. 686 coins = £68,600 in your hand

3. 515 coins = £51,500 in your hand

 

Looks like you are better off buying the coins your self.

 

I already have some personal coins & bullion. I was just thinking this may be a better way to hold reserves for the company, rather than hold cash at the bank and get negative interest. I could pay myself it, but want to keep some reserves in my company.

 

[id5]

I already have some personal coins & bullion. I was just thinking this may be a better way to hold reserves for the company, rather than hold cash at the bank and get negative interest. I could pay myself it, but want to keep some reserves in my company.

 

If you buy through your company and sell it at a later all you are effectively doing is putting off paying the VAT but if it is in the company then the company will have to pay tax on any profit. The upside of keeping it in a company is that if you make a loss you can get tax relief to a point.

 

If buy physical and want to sell later then you can be paid by cash, bank cheque or in a number of other hard to trace forms. Dealers are required to record a transaction over the limit for Money Laundering but will not do anything more than record the details that you give them. The onus is upon you to inform Tax Man about your capital gain. It is very hard for the Tax Man to prove the gain unless they can prove the date of purchase and the amount. It is another reason why governments hate physical as it is so hard to trace.

 

[Pixel8r]

If you buy through your company and sell it at a later all you are effectively doing is putting off paying the VAT but if it is in the company then the company will have to pay tax on any profit. The upside of keeping it in a company is that if you make a loss you can get tax relief to a point.

 

If buy physical and want to sell later then you can be paid by cash, bank cheque or in a number of other hard to trace forms. Dealers are required to record a transaction over the limit for Money Laundering but will not do anything more than record the details that you give them. The onus is upon you to inform Tax Man about your capital gain. It is very hard for the Tax Man to prove the gain unless they can prove the date of purchase and the amount. It is another reason why governments hate physical as it is so hard to trace.

 

I have personal coins & bullion. I need to keep some reserves in my business, which is currently cash in business bank reserve account.

[AgeingBabyBoomer]

I just had a thought (don't laugh ).

 

Some of the popular small bullion coins are historical, circulated coins like British sovereigns, French 20 francs etc.

 

These are plain bullion coins because they are pretty common.

 

The question is, and I'm hoping some real coin expert (id5 maybe) could answer this, just how common are these coins?

 

How many Victoria soverigns are there in the world and how many Bonaparte 20 Francs, for example?

 

Are most of them still in existence or have many been remolded for other purposes?

10 million?

 

In Victorian times it was the practice of the Bank of England to remove worn sovereigns and half sovereigns from circulation and have them recoined. Consequently, although a billion sovereigns have been minted in total, that figure includes gold that has been coined and recoined a number of times. In addition, when coins were sent to places such as the United States for international payments between governments, coins were frequently melted down into gold bars because of the Federal regulations then in force. When gold coins were finally withdrawn from circulation in 1933 in the US, many thousands of British gold sovereigns were consigned to the melting pot in this way.

 

It is estimated that in circulation, a sovereign could have a lifespan of up to 15 years before it fell below the "least current weight", that is, the minimum amount of gold below which it ceased to be legal tender.[4] It was actually the half-sovereign that had the most circulation in Victorian England. Many sovereigns languished in bank vaults for most of their lives. It is estimated that only 1% of all gold sovereigns that have ever been minted are still in collectable condition.

 

Enough for me

ABB

 

[ziknik]

I already have some personal coins & bullion. I was just thinking this may be a better way to hold reserves for the company, rather than hold cash at the bank and get negative interest. I could pay myself it, but want to keep some reserves in my company.

 

Sorry, I think I misunderstood you earlier. I thought you were looking to make a VAT gain via the company.

 

Keeping bullion for me company is also something I’ve got in the back of my mind. But first I need my company to actually have some money.

 

Let us know if your accountant provides you any information regarding paying yourself in bullion. I’m reluctant to mention gold to my accountant. She knows far too much about my finances already.

 

[mongoose]

If a director of a company was to do this then it would be tax evasion.

 

It is the same as if your company brought 10 x £100 ‘face value’ Britannia coins for £500 x 10 = £5,000 and paid a director or employee the ‘face value’ as remuneration i.e. £500. The actual market value of the benefit is taken for the calculation not the’ face value’ or a suggest value.

 

I am not an accountant (IANAA), but what about the following:

 

a. Company buys, but then silver dips by 20%. Company sells at going price + VAT so now holding is personal rather than company for same total cost. Note that as a director, you have a duty to maximise profit for your company, so this could be viewed as a bit "dodgy", but with current cashflow issues that many companies will be facing not something that should raise flags.

 

b. If silver rises, then at least you have delivery and you can still sell in the future. You could sell at the cheapest price you can (what is the cheapest competitor?) without delivery risk.

 

c. If you wind up the company, then redundancy payments have a tax free element, so you can take advantage of this when liquidating assets

[kernull]

[narco]

As much as that chart looks pretty I have to say it is inacurate due to the massive dollar depreciation over the last 35 years.

 

A CPI adjusted one might make more use or even a chart of gold against M3? I think Goldfinger might have one lying around.

[azazel]

I think you have it all wrong Ker. Gold has recently moved up when your charts predicted it would be going down. Gold is clearly in a major bull market starting from 1999 and does well in difficult economic times. We are in difficult times, like no other, with geopolitical tensions escalating in a nuclear age. I cant think of a greater perfect storm, and it is set to get much worse.

 

I prefer Jim Sinclair's chart which has proved quite accurate in its timing although underestimates the magnitude of the waves. He has recently said that he believes Alf Fields has "hit the nail on the head" with his analysis of the wave magnitudes of $1030 up, $699 down and completed, $3500 next wave up, $2500 correction wave, $10,000 final wave 5.

 

Your charts look very negative and may encourage "weak hands" to sell their gold just before a major move up. I hope you plan to stick around and post positive charts too!

[Steve Netwriter]

I am not an accountant (IANAA), but what about the following:

 

I know who you are.

 

You're the magombo guru aren't you. Go on, admit it :lol:

 

[id5]

I have personal coins & bullion. I need to keep some reserves in my business, which is currently cash in business bank reserve account.

 

My apologies I definitely misunderstood you.

 

Just open a company account with any of the metals companies. As long as your company profit is not primarily from the investment it is just treated like a bank account in a different currency.

 

[id5]

It is estimated that only 1% of all gold sovereigns that have ever been minted are still in collectable condition.

 

10 million?

 

Enough for me

ABB

 

When the word coin is seen on Wiki one should really take a deeper look and question if it is correct. I know few coin entries on it that are.

 

As I posted earlier there have been approximately 1,100,000,000 full Sovereigns minted. The Wiki’s guess on surviving coins is 1%, that would be 1,100,000,000 / 100 = 11,000,000.

 

Unfortunately since 1933 over 85,000,000 full Sovereigns have been minted. That would make the answer 85,000,000 + 11,000,000 = 96,000,000 as only a small percentage of these later coins would have been melted down. That’s nearly 9%.

 

Add to that the age spread of coins seen by dealers, the bulk is always made up of late Victoria’s, Edward’s and late George’s, with the lefthand side of the distribution curve filled with earlier George III & IV, William IV’s and early Victora's. The ringhthand side of the curve is made up from Elizabeth’s. The overall figure will be a lot closer to 40% than 1% IMHO.

 

[Pixel8r]

 

So it could go up, stay about the same or go down heavily. I love this TA stuff

 

I think it may be better to focus on the fundamentals.

[Pixel8r]

My apologies I definitely misunderstood you.

 

Just open a company account with any of the metals companies. As long as your company profit is not primarily from the investment it is just treated like a bank account in a different currency.

 

Thats a good idea that I have not considered, open a goldmoney account for my business. Thanks...

 

I have just emailed James Turk to ask about his possibility of opening a limited company account. Will report back what he says..

[id5]

So it could go up, stay about the same or go down heavily. I love this TA stuff

 

I think it may be better to focus on the fundamentals.

 

All TA gives is a calculated risk of what will happen next in that timeframe, For example 68% up, 30%down and 2% flat. The larger the timeframe becomes then the greater the margin of error becomes.

 

Always focus on the fundamental as that gives the direction of the market, the stronger the fundamental the greater the amount of calculated risk you can take. The market will always revert to following the fundamentals after a news item changes a market’s direction, unless that news changes the fundamental.

 

[grumpy-old-man]

So it could go up, stay about the same or go down heavily. I love this TA stuff

 

I think it may be better to focus on the fundamentals.

 

 

[ziknik]

 

I can’t wait untill 2012 to buy gold at $300.

 

I want it to happen in January so I can load up and sit back.

[ziknik]

Thats a good idea that I have not considered, open a goldmoney account for my business. Thanks...

 

I have just emailed James Turk to ask about his possibility of opening a limited company account. Will report back what he says..

 

It’s on the GM website

 

The minimum initial metal purchase amount for all companies must be at least US$500,000. GoldMoney will not accept applications from a company unless this minimum investment amount is first guaranteed by the company's owners/operators.

 

http://goldmoney.com/forms/CAP-Company-A4.pdf

 

[id5]

It’s on the GM website

 

 

 

http://goldmoney.com/forms/CAP-Company-A4.pdf

 

Ziknik, can you send a link to the $500,000 minimum as I cannot see it on the form or web site only maximum thresholds for US/Canadian companies where the directors do not have a passport "These thresholds are currently the equivalent of a USD250,000 balance and USD50,000 turnover per annum respectively" Something is wrong somewhere as there are stating a max balance of $250K and a min balance of $500K

[G0ldfinger]

As much as that chart looks pretty I have to say it is inacurate due to the massive dollar depreciation over the last 35 years.

 

A CPI adjusted one might make more use or even a chart of gold against M3? I think Goldfinger might have one lying around.

 

My TA for today:

 

[id5]

My TA for today:

 

 

Pessimist

[ziknik]

Ziknik, can you send a link to the $500,000 minimum as I cannot see it on the form or web site only maximum thresholds for US/Canadian companies where the directors do not have a passport "These thresholds are currently the equivalent of a USD250,000 balance and USD50,000 turnover per annum respectively" Something is wrong somewhere as there are stating a max balance of $250K and a min balance of $500K

 

I can’t link directly. Go to this page

 

http://goldmoney.com/en/cap.html

 

And then click "CAP for Companies Form" (about half way down the page on the left side)

[Pixel8r]

I can’t link directly. Go to this page

 

http://goldmoney.com/en/cap.html

 

And then click "CAP for Companies Form" (about half way down the page on the left side)

 

I find it a big shame that they have those limits in place. I wonder why you need to put a minimum investment of 1/2 million dollars in?