GOLD

[klogger]

I think it was Goldfinger who showed that a day trader would on average have been playing with a market in gold which went down between the london and NY fixings if he was trading over the last 9 years of a bull market where the price has quadrupled+.

 

I vaguely remember that being discussed. Can you remember if it was the case that the trader would have made a profit or was it the case that the cost of the trade would have wiped out his profit?

 

[electroweak]

I vaguely remember that being discussed. Can you remember if it was the case that the trader would have made a profit or was it the case that the cost of the trade would have wiped out his profit?

a trader who sold am and bought pm would have made (i think) it was less than 0.1% per day, so commissions kinda killed the trading idea.

[klogger]

a trader who sold am and bought pm would have made (i think) it was less than 0.1% per day, so commissions kinda killed the trading idea.

 

Thanks for the reminder. Maybe that is why they have set that amount to smack down each time.

 

[romans holiday]

 

Gold is showing some weakness here having declined $40 even though the dollar has not shown much strengthand in a consolidation phase. Previously it required the dollar to strengthen for gold to decline a little. Could be some good buying ops soon.

 

 

 

Momentum looking on the down side. I'll be averaging in with income this year at the end of each month. I also hope to buy a decent position in VXX shortly as both a hedge and a position trade for lower gold prices should we get a Prechterite collapse in the market.

 

[LauraB]

You are so enigmatic - waving your rolling-pin around...suggestively!

 

 

Get a stash

Hide the stash

Go fishing

 

Seems the way to go.

 

Thxs for that Schaublin. GEI quality showing through as usual. That pic is so innocent, it's from a kitchen shoot. On hpc I had a complaint about its content via the mods, sad.

 

Have the stash.

 

Hiding it, I was going to ask some more about as OH & I are off travelling again this autumn & don't want any interference from those pesky parasitical corrupt-master serving 'crats. Perpetual travelling seems the only way for us to go now. It's an age thing; purple hat revolution etc.

 

I don't eat fish

 

[lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!)]

Thxs for that Schaublin. GEI quality showing through as usual. That pic is so innocent, it's from a kitchen shoot. On hpc I had a complaint about its content via the mods, sad.

they must have felt intimidated

[lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!)]

should we get a Prechterite collapse in the market.

is anyone still listening to him

[romans holiday]

is anyone still listening to him

I think a lot still have Prechter in mind from a fundamentals perspective [the trading, timing, and waves are quite another thing]. Nothing has been resolved, it wouldn't take much to see a renewal of the financial crisis, it is just the timing of it that is proving elusive for many. Doubt gold would go much below 900 if we did see a sell-off.

[Jake]

I think a lot still have Prechter in mind from a fundamentals perspective [the trading, timing, and waves are quite another thing]. Nothing has been resolved, it wouldn't take much to see a renewal of the financial crisis, it is just the timing of it that is proving elusive for many. Doubt gold would go much below 900 if we did see a sell-off.

 

 

Well gold peaked as the dollar bottomed. Dollar goes up, gold goes down. Then dollar went up and so did gold. Now at another juncture? Looking at that chart and Prechter makes sense, broadly. If we get a big sell off people will listen to him again. Whichever I am sure he will be able to explain it like 'an extended top of a b wave minor' or something. Remember 'timing has eluded me' but (para) I am still as convinced as ever.

I would be happy with a sell off though I am not taking any chances and remain nibbling away. Silver is cheap under 20 dollars as far as I am concerned. Cheaper would be lovely. Get them both while you can is my advice to myself, keeping a little back for a big collapse.

[LauraB]

Jacksonville, FL based EverBank – a bank with approximately $8 billion in assets and 1800 employees according to the company website – recently sent this notice to customers (courtesy of Warren Bevan):

 

"Non-FDIC Insured Metals Select Changes" -

 

Section 6.3.7. General Terms: We have added language clarifying our right to close your account. We may close your Metals Select Account at anytime upon reasonable notice to you. If we believe that it is necessary to close your account immediately in order to limit losses by you or us [GG: We really don’t give a s**t about you; it’s us that we care about], we may close your account prior to providing notice to you. Notice from us to one of you is notice to all of you [GG: the nerve of these people!]. If we close your account, we reserve the right to convert your Precious Metals to U.S. dollars and tender the balance to you by mail

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/its-going...ysical-gold-now

 

But is it really evidence of a pending implosion, or just a bank being a bank to it's not-so-precious victims?

[aliveandkicking]

Jacksonville, FL based EverBank – a bank with approximately $8 billion in assets and 1800 employees according to the company website – recently sent this notice to customers (courtesy of Warren Bevan):

 

"Non-FDIC Insured Metals Select Changes" -

 

Section 6.3.7. General Terms: We have added language clarifying our right to close your account. We may close your Metals Select Account at anytime upon reasonable notice to you. If we believe that it is necessary to close your account immediately in order to limit losses by you or us [GG: We really don’t give a s**t about you; it’s us that we care about], we may close your account prior to providing notice to you. Notice from us to one of you is notice to all of you [GG: the nerve of these people!]. If we close your account, we reserve the right to convert your Precious Metals to U.S. dollars and tender the balance to you by mail

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/its-going...ysical-gold-now

 

But is it really evidence of a pending implosion, or just a bank being a bank to it's not-so-precious victims?

 

I would guess the banks who are FDIC insured like Everbank are under pressure from the government to lower their customers exposure to gold so that this gold is sold or held personally. At current prices gold is over valued relative to its mining costs. The feds can then oblige people speculating in a none productive asset to move to something more productive so that the economy can get going again - because these people will know it will not be so easy to sell their gold if the price crashes and their held gold does not make much difference because there is a huge surplus of gold in the world. The price is only set at the margin by the smaller amount that is bought and sold and more and more is mined everyday and often controlled by the anglo american interests.

 

Obviously the fewer gold players who can easily buy and sell using electronic methods then the easier it will be to overwhelm buyers and encourage them to take losses to get the price back to the production cost.

 

The price of gold is no different to a house. When it does not reflect the production cost it is not fairly valued.

 

 

[electroweak]

I would guess the banks who are FDIC insured like Everbank are under pressure from the government to lower their customers exposure to gold so that this gold is sold or held personally.

unlikely. More like just covering their backsides in case.

 

At current prices gold is over valued relative to its mining costs.

would it look so if oil were at $147, $300 ? Bear in mind these things fluctuate wildly!

 

The feds can then oblige people speculating in a none productive asset to move to something more productive so that the economy can get going again

hmmm... this is a tenuous assertion at best. It may drive people into physical in their posession (it should, if the account holders even realise they are bieng shafted [because they read the small print, that is!])

 

- because these people will know it will not be so easy to sell their gold if the price crashes and their held gold does not make much difference because there is a huge surplus of gold in the world.

Tried to sell physical? You could sell it in the Amazon rainforest it's so liquid.

Huge surplus?! hmm.. yeah, right. There's a huge surplus of paper gold for sure.

The price is only set at the margin by the smaller amount that is bought and sold and more and more is mined everyday and often controlled by the anglo american interests.

more and more people are born every day. more and more dollars are printed every day. who are the buyers of late? India? (200t) China?(doubled reserves last yr) Sri Lanka (10t)? Russia (massively increased reserves last year)? Research...research...tut.

 

Obviously the fewer gold players who can easily buy and sell using electronic methods then the easier it will be to overwhelm buyers and encourage them to take losses to get the price back to the production cost.

The price of gold is no different to a house. When it does not reflect the production cost it is not fairly valued.

This is not true, and you know it. House prices are based on leverage people are willing to take on based on their salaries. They are illiquid, unique, and non-divisible.

Physical gold is rarely leveraged, COMEX futures are, but whoever heard of J6P being given a loan to speculate on gold? Totally different. Again, a gross misconception on your part? I can';t b e bothered replying any more...

[aliveandkicking]

unlikely. More like just covering their backsides in case.

 

 

would it look so if oil were at $147, $300 ? Bear in mind these things fluctuate wildly!

 

 

hmmm... this is a tenuous assertion at best. It may drive people into physical in their posession (it should, if the account holders even realise they are bieng shafted [because they read the small print, that is!])

 

 

Tried to sell physical? You could sell it in the Amazon rainforest it's so liquid.

Huge surplus?! hmm.. yeah, right. There's a huge surplus of paper gold for sure.

 

more and more people are born every day. more and more dollars are printed every day. who are the buyers of late? India? (200t) China?(doubled reserves last yr) Sri Lanka (10t)? Russia (massively increased reserves last year)? Research...research...tut.

 

 

This is not true, and you know it. House prices are based on leverage people are willing to take on based on their salaries. They are illiquid, unique, and non-divisible.

Physical gold is rarely leveraged, COMEX futures are, but whoever heard of J6P being given a loan to speculate on gold? Totally different. Again, a gross misconception on your part? I can';t b e bothered replying any more...

 

 

Nearly all of the money in the economy that assets are priced in, is debt based.

 

If a banks gives you a mortgage the seller has piles of dosh to drive up the price of gold, wages, copper, bricks, plastics land and everything else a house is made of.

 

You already know gold was around 35 dollars an ounze when there was less debt based money in the world.

 

And you seem fond of telling me i am an ignorant and need to do more research

 

But apparently when reason is applied to your erroneous belief system that makes me some kind of fraud!

 

Worse you like to correct my spelling!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rdw]

http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/compan...data-14360.html

 

The headline says

 

"Friday, March 12, 2010

 

Gold reaches $1,150 as US dollar falls ahead of US retail sales and consumer sentiment data"

 

But the article says

 

"The yellow metal climbed to US$1,115/oz, while silver and platinum advanced to US$17.28/oz and US$1,620/oz respectively"

 

Someone will be in trouble for that.

[electroweak]

Nearly all of the money in the economy that assets are priced in, is debt based.

 

If a banks gives you a mortgage the seller has piles of dosh to drive up the price of gold, wages, copper, bricks, plastics land and everything else a house is made of.

my point was that physical gold is very rarely leveraged. J6P simply does not borrow to speculate on gold at the moment.

 

You already know gold was around 35 dollars an ounze when there was less debt based money in the world.

yes... but people do not generally borrow to buy physical gold. Or to buy Everbank's phoney paper either!

 

And you seem fond of telling me i am an ignorant and need to do more research

You say things like this: "more is mined everyday and often controlled by the anglo american interests." which just doesn't tally with the big moves of late. Where are your figures / research to show this? At least I have come up with a few numbers off the top of my head which refute your assertion.

 

But apparently when reason is applied to your erroneous belief system that makes me some kind of fraud!

'reason' ? hmm.. not sure I agree you have reasoned your way through this. I agree money is debt based, and "debt-based money" is used to purchase things, including gold, but rarely does a physical gold purchase involve the direct use of credit for the purchase. That was my point. Can you give me one example of a bank which would lend me 3x salary to purchase some gold please? I might take them up on it.

 

 

Worse you like to correct my spelling!

It can be hard to understand what you are saying sometimes. At the very least things can be misinterpreted.

[rdw]

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/03/12...nminbi-rumours/

 

The Chinese-currency rumour mill is “churning overtime” traders noted on Friday, as forward renminbi contracts headed towards their biggest weekly gain in two months.

 

Citi traders said on Friday morning that much speculation about a weekend (upwards) revaluation of the reniminbi brought more heavy selling interest.

 

The point, according to Citi, is that “no one is certain when their wish [for a revaluation] will be granted by Chinese authorities” but, “nobody can afford to NOT have a position if there is a GO for the reval”.

 

 

What would a Chinese interest rate hike and currency revaluation do to my Gold Miner and Pacific Bason share funds, not good I suspect.

[aliveandkicking]

my point was that physical gold is very rarely leveraged. J6P simply does not borrow to speculate on gold at the moment.

 

 

yes... but people do not generally borrow to buy physical gold. Or to buy Everbank's phoney paper either!

 

 

You say things like this: "more is mined everyday and often controlled by the anglo american interests." which just doesn't tally with the big moves of late. Where are your figures / research to show this? At least I have come up with a few numbers off the top of my head which refute your assertion.

 

 

'reason' ? hmm.. not sure I agree you have reasoned your way through this. I agree money is debt based, and "debt-based money" is used to purchase things, including gold, but rarely does a physical gold purchase involve the direct use of credit for the purchase. That was my point. Can you give me one example of a bank which would lend me 3x salary to purchase some gold please? I might take them up on it.

 

 

 

It can be hard to understand what you are saying sometimes. At the very least things can be misinterpreted.

 

How many people in the world owning gold are debt free? And before you start whining 'it is different', it amounts to the same thing because if you have debts you will find it hard to buy a house with debt. You can though suck out any equity to buy gold. When all the people levered up with debt who own gold get rid of their debt i bet the price will be lower than otherwise is the case.

 

As far as i know Barrett gold is american owned and is the largest gold miner in the world. Are you disputing that gold is mined every day? Or are you just unclear??

 

 

[electroweak]

How many people in the world owning gold are debt free?

me, for one.

And before you start whining 'it is different', it amounts to the same thing because if you have debts you will find it hard to buy a house with debt.

Show me a bank, ANY BANK, that will lend me 3x salary to buy some gold.

You can though suck out any equity to buy gold. When all the people levered up with debt get rid of their debt i bet there is less owned gold

Yes I agree that equity may be used to buy gold. However, and this is my point, please try to understand, gold's price is not set directly by what J6P can borrow based on his salary, because he does not borrow 3x to buy a gold bar. He invests in physical gold generally on no margin with savings.

 

As far as i know Barrett gold is american owned and is the largest gold miner in the world. Are you disputing that gold is mined every day? Or are you just unclear??

you mean Barrick? the Canadian company? (again, research!?) - just cos they are listed on the NYSE and TSX doesn't mean that the eastern powers don't own a chunk. I'd bet they do. Taking Barrick as an example, they produced 8.6 Moz in 2006, down to 7.6 Moz in 2008 - you know how many tonnes that is? About 200. Well, India bought the equivalent of all that last year in one go. Then there's the Indian citizens, the Chinese citizens, the Chinese authorities... Sri Lanka, Russia, Latin America, western investors.... the world is not awash with surplus gold; it is being quietly accumulated in physical form whilst vast amounts of paper gold are played with on margin.

 

And f*** you about me not reasoning my way thru this.

That's a bit unneccessary. Welcome to ignoreland (again).

I see you removed that comment. Would you like me to delete it too? Oh, sorry you will be on ignore.

 

[aliveandkicking]

me, for one.

 

Show me a bank, ANY BANK, that will lend me 3x salary to buy some gold.

 

Yes I agree that equity may be used to buy gold. However, and this is my point, please try to understand, gold's price is not set directly by what J6P can borrow based on his salary, because he does not borrow 3x to buy a gold bar. He invests in physical gold generally on no margin with savings.

 

 

you mean Barrick? the Canadian company? (again, research!?) - just cos they are listed on the NYSE and TSX doesn't mean that the eastern powers don't own a chunk. I'd bet they do. Taking Barrick as an example, they produced 8.6 Moz in 2006, down to 7.6 Moz in 2008 - you know how many tonnes that is? About 200. Well, India bought the equivalent of all that last year in one go. Then there's the Indian citizens, the Chinese citizens, the Chinese authorities... Sri Lanka, Russia, Latin America, western investors.... the world is not awash with surplus gold; it is being quietly accumulated in physical form whilst vast amounts of paper gold are played with on margin.

 

 

That's a bit unneccessary. Welcome to ignoreland (again).

I see you removed that comment. Would you like me to delete it too? Oh, sorry you will be on ignore.

 

It seems the reason you cant understand me is something to do with your bias, and habit of being pedantic over things which are irrelevant

 

Even Jim rogers will tell you that gold is prone to bubbles because there is low fundamental demand for gold as something useful compared to the all ready mined supply of gold. But you want to come up with 'the world is not awash with surplus gold; it is being quietly accumulated in physical form whilst vast amounts of paper gold are played with on margin.' as if you have some great knowledge that nobody else has.

 

I note from wiki that Barrick mined 7,700,000 oz gold in 2008 at a cash cost of 443 US dollars an ounze, and i wonder why people know that India bought 200 tonnes of gold at about 1045? Oh the IMF told you about it. It must be true i suppose.

 

And i see the Chinese say they prefer US debt

 

But hey you are the expert researcher

[azazel]

It seems the reason you cant understand me is something to do with your bias, and habit of being pedantic over things which are irrelevant

 

Even Jim rogers will tell you that gold is prone to bubbles because there is low fundamental demand for gold as something useful compared to the all ready mined supply of gold. But you want to come up with 'the world is not awash with surplus gold; it is being quietly accumulated in physical form whilst vast amounts of paper gold are played with on margin.' as if you have some great knowledge that nobody else has.

 

I note from wiki that Barrick mined 7,700,000 oz gold in 2008 at a cash cost of 443 US dollars an ounze, and i wonder why people know that India bought 200 tonnes of gold at about 1045? Oh the IMF told you about it. It must be true i suppose.

 

And i see the Chinese say they prefer US debt

 

But hey you are the expert researcher

Wheres goldfinger when you need some culling........?

[electroweak]

Jacksonville, FL based EverBank – a bank with approximately $8 billion in assets and 1800 employees according to the company website – recently sent this notice to customers (courtesy of Warren Bevan):

 

"Non-FDIC Insured Metals Select Changes" -

 

Section 6.3.7. General Terms: We have added language clarifying our right to close your account. We may close your Metals Select Account at anytime upon reasonable notice to you. If we believe that it is necessary to close your account immediately in order to limit losses by you or us [GG: We really don’t give a s**t about you; it’s us that we care about], we may close your account prior to providing notice to you. Notice from us to one of you is notice to all of you [GG: the nerve of these people!]. If we close your account, we reserve the right to convert your Precious Metals to U.S. dollars and tender the balance to you by mail

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/its-going...ysical-gold-now

 

But is it really evidence of a pending implosion, or just a bank being a bank to it's not-so-precious victims?

I'd just like to bump Laura's excellent post about what's going on at Everbank (my red). Thanks to the trolling and lack of a cull, it kinda got lost. This is pretty significant IMO. Thanks Laura. I promise not to feed the furry one any more.

 

Personally, I think this means Everbank never purchased metal on behalf of their customers, and are terrified of some kind of default in the COMEX.

[romans holiday]

I'd just like to bump Laura's excellent post about what's going on at Everbank (my red). Thanks to the trolling and lack of a cull, it kinda got lost. This is pretty significant IMO. Thanks Laura. I promise not to feed the furry one any more.

 

Personally, I think this means Everbank never purchased metal on behalf of their customers, and are terrified of some kind of default in the COMEX.

This further highlights the problems you can face with individual institutions.... whether they be banks or vaults... and why it's a good idea to keep your worth with various institutions. That and have a bit of physical of course.

[Schaublin]

I'd just like to bump Laura's excellent post about what's going on at Everbank (my red). Thanks to the trolling and lack of a cull, it kinda got lost. This is pretty significant IMO. Thanks Laura. I promise not to feed the furry one any more.

 

Personally, I think this means Everbank never purchased metal on behalf of their customers, and are terrified of some kind of default in the COMEX.

 

There was a case a few years back involving Barclays IIRC - a silver ETF - which someone found out had no silver - it was settled out of court. What amused me was that the investors were charged 'storage' on their silver!

[aliveandkicking]

There was a case a few years back involving Barclays IIRC - a silver ETF - which someone found out had no silver - it was settled out of court. What amused me was that the investors were charged 'storage' on their silver!

 

Apparently it is vitally important on this board not to libel anybody.

 

It was morgan Stanley. I think though they issued Certificates and charged for storage when they had no silver rather than ran an ETF.

[id5]

Apparently it is vitally important on this board not to libel anybody.

 

It was morgan Stanley. I think though they issued Certificates and charged for storage when they had no silver rather than ran an ETF.

It was and it is not libellous to state a truth and below is a link to a letter published on a US Government web site.

 

"Here, it was found in court that Morgan Stanley gave false balances for Silver to investor accounts and even charged for Silver storage, for Silver Morgan Stanley never had and had never even bothered to buy in the first place."