UK House prices: News & Views

[Kurtz]

Obviously I understand that.

 

The bit I don't understand is why the downtrodden millions put up with it.

 

Recent events would suggest they aren't anymore.

 

UK/US will do a Middle East fairly soon.

[malvern hills]

Obviously I understand that.

 

The bit I don't understand is why the downtrodden millions put up with it.

 

I don't know what you will make of this, but I'll say it anyway.

 

Once a part of society has more, it can exercise its power to make the rest work for it- this is the wielding of pure power, and I believe, part of human nature.

You just can't get away from it, even though many have tried in the failed and failing communist experiments.

It all comes down to individual conscience Ithink. If you believe that you and your tribe are better than another section of society you will be happy to wield power over them, believing it best for the larger society.

 

If on the other hand you believe that all people should be treated equally(or to put it another way 'treat people as you yourself would wish to be treated') then it will not be possible for you to act as superior to others in a generalised way, although it might be possible in a narrow sense ie. in some area of expertise.

 

Therefore I think that statistically the majority of people in power are somewhat psychopathic ie.they believe themselves to be superior and that their wants and wishes are the only real concern whilst the vast majority of the masses have no reason to wish to act as lords over other humans, firstly because they don't believe they have any answers that their 'leaders' don't have and secondly it is against their core belief, that to oppress another human is wrong.

 

The middle classes(professionals) to my mind also believe it is wrong to oppress others, but they also believe themselves superior and therefore they can justify their higher position whilst consoling themselves they have not exploited anyone to gain their higher status but only worked hard themselves, and I believe this position is tenable.

 

I don't think it possible to overcome human nature, however I think that in the long sweep of history it may change to something more egalitarian; although Darwinism may have to be chucked out to do so.

 

 

 

It has always been this way and probably always will.

 

 

[drbubb]

Fair enough - there should be no examples at all.

 

But, when this was first bandied about, there were some statistics bandied about too - showing how many people were receiving huge levels of housing benefit. There weren't that many and, although I agree there should be none and that things must change - to extrapolate this tiny number of poor people on housing benefits living in middle class areas is a bit - well meaningless to be honest.

 

There was a woman on the box a while ago living in a house in (I think) Lambeth. Now, as far as I can tell, it is not her fault that, apparently, the house is worth a million quid and the rent (therefore) is 2 grand a month (I've made those figures up - the story is true but I can't remember the actual figures). She has children in local schools.

 

Your remedy is to force her to move onto a sink estate and move her kids into the local ghetto school?

She can live where she likes, but subsidy she gets should be capped - as it will be.

 

Who should be in the schools you call "local ghetto schools" - only the working poor?

[crushtherents]

You are welcome here, CrushTheRents.

But I would suggest you change your signature.

hi. as far as i am concerned, bubb has already dealt with this when he suspende me. so if you dont mind. i'm going to keep my sig for a Few days and then i will change it.

 

[BoldAsBrass]

She can live where she likes, but subsidy she gets should be capped - as it will be.

 

Then she'll have to move through no fault of her own. She is a puppet in these matters.

 

Who should be in the schools you call "local ghetto schools" - only the working poor?

 

No-one. Poorly performing schools should be closed - in that the whole teaching staff should be sacked (and not ever re-employed as teachers) and people who CAN TEACH employed instead. Alternatively, you could hand education over to the nuns - nasty bitches most of them but they certainly turned out the best educated children.

 

Attention deficit wasn't a problem when I was a child. We all paid attention - or paid the price!

[John Doe]

Recent events would suggest they aren't anymore.

 

UK/US will do a Middle East fairly soon.

That's actually the point.

 

The benefits system mean we don't have the masses uprising. People aren't starving here.

[Jake]

That's actually the point.

 

The benefits system mean we don't have the masses uprising. People aren't starving here.

They might be if the governments austerity measures were allowed to run though. So far all talk and no do. Maybe there will come a time that benefits simply CAN'T be paid. In the meantime it is a slow squeeze down on the majority of people.

[Kurtz]

They might be if the governments austerity measures were allowed to run though. So far all talk and no do. Maybe there will come a time that benefits simply CAN'T be paid. In the meantime it is a slow squeeze down on the majority of people.

 

I agree.

 

How much do most get on benefits, I mean those workers who have just been made redundant? 60 quid is it? How does that feed anyone there as well as pay bills?

 

For people like me there would be nothing at all, was SE. Only reason my family isn't starving is we're set up in the far east and have low costs and a farm, in the UK I'd literally be in the gutter by now.

 

Unless the UK/US have pulled off some miracle economy (of course we know no such thing exists) expect a popular uprising.

[Jake]

I agree.

 

How much do most get on benefits, I mean those workers who have just been made redundant? 60 quid is it? How does that feed anyone there as well as pay bills?

 

For people like me there would be nothing at all, was SE. Only reason my family isn't starving is we're set up in the far east and have low costs and a farm, in the UK I'd literally be in the gutter by now.

 

Unless the UK/US have pulled off some miracle economy (of course we know no such thing exists) expect a popular uprising.

Just out of interest Col, can anyone buy land/farms in Thailand? Is your farm earning you a living or more a hobby/survival hedge? How much land do you have? (sorry to be a nosey git).

[John Doe]

Unless the UK/US have pulled off some miracle economy (of course we know no such thing exists) expect a popular uprising.

As long as it's after midday. You know how hard it is to get out of bed before then!

 

If that were ever going to happen, it would have happened in the 80's. It didn't.

[John Doe]

How much do most get on benefits, I mean those workers who have just been made redundant? 60 quid is it? How does that feed anyone there as well as pay bills?

 

For people like me there would be nothing at all, was SE. Only reason my family isn't starving is we're set up in the far east and have low costs and a farm, in the UK I'd literally be in the gutter by now.

You would get benefits in the UK, even as ex SE. You wouldn't starve, but you would have to adapt to a whole new way of life.

 

It’s bloody difficult, but millions do it. It's when you learn who your real friends are.

 

The new way of life you have chosen definitely sounds better though. Fair play!

 

[Kurtz]

Just out of interest Col, can anyone buy land/farms in Thailand? Is your farm earning you a living or more a hobby/survival hedge? How much land do you have? (sorry to be a nosey git).

 

No can't own, all in the kids name. Keeps food on table.

[Jake]

As long as it's after midday. You know how hard it is to get out of bed before then!

 

If that were ever going to happen, it would have happened in the 80's. It didn't.

What was worse in the 80's than today? I half agree with you though. The British are adept at being divided and ruled. Hence no real revolution to date. Think, though, all those unhappy folk dumped out of their property if repossesed. My heart bleeds for all the 2 year fixer-uppers out there waitng in line for a good fleecing. Lets hope they have been 'mending the roof' these last 2 years with their windfalls rather than bragging that property 'never goes down' etc etc...

[Kurtz]

You would get benefits in the UK, even as ex SE. You wouldn't starve, but you would have to adapt to a whole new way of life.

 

It’s bloody difficult, but millions do it. It's when you learn who your real friends are.

 

The new way of life you have chosen definitely sounds better though. Fair play!

 

You're wrong. I know you're wrong because I've had to bail people out when the DSS said they were entitled to a months stamp and nothing else. This was a bloke in his mid-forties, married, kids, made redundant, had been a civil engineer (PAYE!) . . . I moved them to Sydney.

 

I've seen plenty of others refused, usually those workers who'd contributed the most. Includes family members.

 

The safety net is an illusion.

 

This is better, but it's all relative. The UK is a con for working people, why so many leave now.

[John Doe]

You're wrong. I know you're wrong because I've had to bail people out when the DSS said they were entitled to a months stamp and nothing else. This was a bloke in his mid-forties, married, kids, made redundant, had been a civil engineer (PAYE!) . . . I moved them to Sydney.

 

I've seen plenty of others refused, usually those workers who'd contributed the most. Includes family members.

 

The safety net is an illusion.

No offence, but I have been through the system myself. I got help within two days (albeit in a B&B for a couple of weeks). It was many years ago now, but the safety net worked for us.

 

 

[John Doe]

What was worse in the 80's than today?

People still cared and had a (relatively) real choice, capitalism, or nationalisation. Don't see much of that now.

[Kurtz]

No offence, but I have been through the system myself. I got help within two days (albeit in a B&B for a couple of weeks). It was many years ago now, but the safety net worked for us.

 

Well, no offence, but I know plenty it hasn't worked for. I don't trust government at all. Glad you're not in that situation now though. Until recently I'd always lived either in the car, floor of a filthy site office or a bunkabin often without electric or sanitary facilities (over a decade of that) so I know what truly hard living is all about.

 

Let's see how well it works in a country now facing bankruptcy.

[tallim]

I agree.

 

How much do most get on benefits, I mean those workers who have just been made redundant? 60 quid is it? How does that feed anyone there as well as pay bills?

 

For people like me there would be nothing at all, was SE. Only reason my family isn't starving is we're set up in the far east and have low costs and a farm, in the UK I'd literally be in the gutter by now.

 

Unless the UK/US have pulled off some miracle economy (of course we know no such thing exists) expect a popular uprising.

 

The amount of benefits available in the UK is often more than you expect because it is split into many different schemes and is paid to lots more than just those unemployed:

 

http://www.turn2us.org.uk/information__res...z_benefits.aspx

 

The largest areas of spend (2009/2010) excluding state pension (67Bn) are;

 

Tax Credits (22Bn)

Housing Allowance (20Bn)

Disability Benefits (19Bn)

Child Benefit (12Bn)

Income Support (8Bn).

 

Job Seekers is quite low down at (3.6Bn).

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/39553294/Public-...ment-department

 

There are also lots of little areas that don't show clearly as benefit spending; free prescriptions, free use of leisure centres, council tax benefit, maternity payments, etc... as well as private benefits, e.g. subsidized rates for goods and services;

 

http://www.buxtonoperahouse.org.uk/booking/discounts

 

My sister works for an architects firm in London as an administrator on avery good wage (~34k), one of her colleagues with a depedant child in a similar role on similar pay asked to be made redundant as she had calculated that she would have more disposible income if she was unemployed, as well as lots more free time.

 

Then you have the example in this thread of someone earning good money as a Civil Engineer on PAYE and finding out they can have nothing.

 

I think the complexities of the system allow these oddities and hide the true cost. I don't believe any government intended some of the peverse incentives we see, it just got too confusing and people operating is silos made decisions without looking at the overall picture.

 

I see exactly the same problems in large companies, where complex internal allocation of costs creates similar oddities (people being paid for delivering work of little or no benefit) and peverse incentives (decisions which are correct for a particular department balance sheet, but wrong for the bottom line of the company).

 

The UK government has made the right noises about consolidating systems to ease the complexity and allow an end-to-end cost to be seen per individual or family. The struggle, as in companies, is telling people they have unintendedly been paid too much in the past.

[neil324]

I assume people are talking about being self employed.

 

I have heard stories of people being refused benefits when registered self employed. The reason is i think that it's part of being self employed and having gaps in employment. So lets say you work a few months,no work so you want to sign on,find work again for a few weeks or months, then want to sign on again. At a point you would be refused benefits and i have been told by people with families. As with recessions the gaps of not working get more frequent and longer.

 

Although you can claim benefits(JSA/income support) while being self employed and as long as your not following the above pattern. Sickness benefit, they check your NI contributions from any 2 years from the previous 3, any gaps found, they will not pay ANY sickness benefit and you have to claim income support.

[Kurtz]

The amount of benefits available in the UK is often more than you expect because it is split into many different schemes and is paid to lots more than just those unemployed:

 

http://www.turn2us.org.uk/information__res...z_benefits.aspx

 

The largest areas of spend (2009/2010) excluding state pension (67Bn) are;

 

Tax Credits (22Bn)

Housing Allowance (20Bn)

Disability Benefits (19Bn)

Child Benefit (12Bn)

Income Support (8Bn).

 

Job Seekers is quite low down at (3.6Bn).

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/39553294/Public-...ment-department

 

There are also lots of little areas that don't show clearly as benefit spending; free prescriptions, free use of leisure centres, council tax benefit, maternity payments, etc... as well as private benefits, e.g. subsidized rates for goods and services;

 

http://www.buxtonoperahouse.org.uk/booking/discounts

 

My sister works for an architects firm in London as an administrator on avery good wage (~34k), one of her colleagues with a depedant child in a similar role on similar pay asked to be made redundant as she had calculated that she would have more disposible income if she was unemployed, as well as lots more free time.

 

Then you have the example in this thread of someone earning good money as a Civil Engineer on PAYE and finding out they can have nothing.

 

I think the complexities of the system allow these oddities and hide the true cost. I don't believe any government intended some of the peverse incentives we see, it just got too confusing and people operating is silos made decisions without looking at the overall picture.

 

I see exactly the same problems in large companies, where complex internal allocation of costs creates similar oddities (people being paid for delivering work of little or no benefit) and peverse incentives (decisions which are correct for a particular department balance sheet, but wrong for the bottom line of the company).

 

The UK government has made the right noises about consolidating systems to ease the complexity and allow an end-to-end cost to be seen per individual or family. The struggle, as in companies, is telling people they have unintendedly been paid too much in the past.

 

Oh I know this real clown ignorant self-righteous C$%! that comes out here, bragging about his tax credits, how he only works 16 hours a week doing nothing, bit of cash in hand and was moaning that he'd only saved 8000 quid in a year.

 

Once in the system, they're protected.

 

You're right about the firms too, the whole shabang is a stinking edifice.

[John Doe]

Well, no offence, but I know plenty it hasn't worked for. I don't trust government at all. Glad you're not in that situation now though. Until recently I'd always lived either in the car, floor of a filthy site office or a bunkabin often without electric or sanitary facilities (over a decade of that) so I know what truly hard living is all about.

Fair enough. (Sounds like my brother, mod cons were never his thing, stays in his lorry most of the time even now).

 

I can only go by my own experience and that of others I have known. I too have helped friends (even sorted a deposit and a months rent for them so they can get private rented housing while claims are going through, they helped me out in the past also). No problem at all, in fact I was amazed just how easy it was.

 

I have a question though, how did your friend go from civil engineer to homeless in such a short period of time? Why didn't they do the same? If they could get to Aus they could easily have stayed and got private rented then claimed while looking for a new job, couldn't they?

 

One thing I made sure of is that I will never let my family end up back there. Whatever happens.

 

 

 

 

[John Doe]

Although you can claim benefits(JSA/income support) while being self employed and as long as your not following the above pattern. Sickness benefit, they check your NI contributions from any 2 years from the previous 3, any gaps found, they will not pay ANY sickness benefit and you have to claim income support.

That was my understanding too. Although I don't think you can have savings above a set limit also?

[Kurtz]

Fair enough. (Sounds like my brother, mod cons were never his thing, stays in his lorry most of the time even now).

 

I can only go by my own experience and that of others I have known. I too have helped friends (even sorted a deposit and a months rent for them so they can get private rented housing while claims are going through, they helped me out in the past also). No problem at all, in fact I was amazed just how easy it was.

 

I have a question though, how did your friend go from civil engineer to homeless in such a short period of time? Why didn't they do the same? If they could get to Aus they could easily have stayed and got private rented then claimed while looking for a new job, couldn't they?

 

One thing I made sure of is that I will never let my family end up back there. Whatever happens.

 

You're a good soul.

 

Not that easy to get a job again so quick even back then. He had debts. Serious debts. Like massive debts.

 

The DSS simply refused and he had no other options. 6500 quid that hit me for and he never even tried to pay it back. Just another scumbag.

 

[Kurtz]

King knows the unrest is coming.

 

King surprised not more anger at bankers

[neil324]

That was my understanding too. Although I don't think you can have savings above a set limit also?

 

Yes if it's a means tested benefit the rules are the same if your self employed regarding savings. £6k and below and sliding scale £6k - £16k.

 

Saying that though i have read on the internet people declaring between £30k & £60k savings and being allowed JSA.Not sure if they where registered self employed;)