Gatesy Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 He took completely the right approach, if he had sat and done nothing he would have been rewarded with exactly ....nothing. I think I would have saved the robbery comment for the second email... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Thyme Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 My experiences with spreadbetting firms have been fairly uneventful. After a fair amount of research, there was a general feeling that if you became too successful, the firm might not fill orders, stops etc as promptly or the trading platform would "malfunction" and self-rectify just after you suffered a loss on your position. Although I was new to the concept, I intended to become proficient at it one day so I opened accounts with 4 providers so that in the event of my eventually making more money than I lost, I wouldn't have to suffer too many instances of provider tomfoolery. After a year or so, I'm now making modest profits thanks to tips and reference from GEI contributors (thanks) amongst other sources. Silver and Gold ticking down this morning - assuming light profit-taking and re-positioning ahead of what could be a big move dependent on what the dollar does after the ECB decision and the US non-farm payroll numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernull Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 maybe I a bit overloaded on GCI, another guy confirmed the drop in Metatrader, I am not sure what Metatrader is, a common platform a lot of brokers use?? if that happend with all brokers, I think it is not their fault? Some manipulation at CBOT? picture attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knavel Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 I think I would have saved the robbery comment for the second email... That's closer to what I was driving at. If someone sends me an opening email like that, i.e., wholly defamatory, accusatory, I will do my best to make sure that we play by the book with them....yes, I did handle the complaints, at least the formal ones when I was in the industry. Only when you get ignored or rebuked do you up the tone. The bigger concern to me was missed...namely that this company didn't see the spike in their systems until it was brought to their attention. That didn't ever happen to my knowledge at my company and we would automatically reverse--in this case the error closing trade. I've never heard of the company you were using, maybe you should try someone else who has a better back office. Finally, as a general comment there is this general consensus of conspiracy theory, that if you get too big as a client they spread providers will manipulate or take other measures to screw you. Let me clear the air: there is no such monitoring or effort. There is enough money to be made off commissions and/or not hedging as punters statistically always lose. I say this after 5 years+ as a director at an FSA authorised spreads firm. Further, if this sort of behaviour was tried on with one of the hedge funds or other high worth clients, they'd see it immediately and the reputational damage would be devastating to the firm, let alone possible legal consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinBrick Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 I think long term is difficult with SB. Certainly gold and silver are fairly limited to about 3 months out, currencies 6 months and indices/stocks max one year. This is true, but you can set up any of these to rollover automatically on expiry. Of course, that means you incur the cost of the spread again on each rollover, so you would need to be aware of that cost and take it into account in your investment decision. This is one reason some people favour CFDs which have no expiry date. That said, CFDs can have their own issues. In the last while there has been a lot of controversy about CFD clients being forced to deposit extra cash to reduce their leverage from, say, 90% to 80% at very short notice or have their positions closed at a hefty loss, only to see the underlying market recover. I'd say they felt pretty suckered too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernull Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 That's closer to what I was driving at. If someone sends me an opening email like that, i.e., wholly defamatory, accusatory, I will do my best to make sure that we play by the book with them....yes, I did handle the complaints, at least the formal ones when I was in the industry. Only when you get ignored or rebuked do you up the tone. ohh, come on, customer service gets even worser emails. I have sent an apology allready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbs7 Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 False. Spread betting is a financial service regulated by the Financial Services Authority--it has been specifically removed from gambling laws per the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. Spread bettings is as enforceable as any contract. If the firm fails, you will have standing as a creditor in bankruptcy should you have funds with the firm. See my other historical posts on the advantages of ensuring you are a segregated funds client in anticipation of exactly this circumstance. If the systems fail, we've already seen that Ker got his trade reinstated, and even when s/he took a wholly agressive, inappropriate approach to lodging his complaint. True, but we know how well funded these compensation schemes are... and i imagine in the event of a system shock spread betting clients will get less sympathy, and therefore less likely to be bailed out by the taxpayer / investigated by the FSA. I have heard about and also seen this type of manipulation live so I don't think that these are isolated cases. Security on spread betting accounts in my experience is also minimal - when I have rung up all they need is my username and my name - not much else and off you go. I'm not wholly against spreadbetting, but I think the systems are too flaky for any sizeable trading or anything too leveraged. I will use it on occassions for an easy quick trade but not for anything serious, as whatever the FSA say for me they are just a bunch of bookies which means generally they will do things ok, but where it is to their advantage or disadvantage, I suspect there is some manipulation, especially running the stop losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatesy Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Security on spread betting accounts in my experience is also minimal - when I have rung up all they need is my username and my name - not much else and off you go. At the risk of keeping this thread well and truly off topic, I totally agree with you. This is possibly one of the greatest drawbacks / risks IMO. I suppose I have turned a blind eye to this at the prospect of juicy tax free gains, but I have certainly noticed this. However it is not just the SB firms but brokers also I have found pretty flaky in this regard. I have been very surprised in fact that one particular broker allows me to trade and discuss an account in my wifes name which i set up for her; you know, in practical terms that's exactly what you want, but they've never even asked to speak with her to "OK" this.... so it reflects quite poorly on their security standards generally. Back on the SB firms, it's not just the phone security but the web platform is not via SSL. I queried this when I set the account up and they claimed it was due to the large volume of data being piped to my client end. Anyone know if this is just an excuse or a reasonable explanation? Anyone know of any known web attacks/hacks on SB firms due to this secruity hole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgnao Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Spread betting is a financial service regulated by the Financial Services Authority Northern Rock too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbs7 Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Back on the SB firms, it's not just the phone security but the web platform is not via SSL. I queried this when I set the account up and they claimed it was due to the large volume of data being piped to my client end. Anyone know if this is just an excuse or a reasonable explanation? Anyone know of any known web attacks/hacks on SB firms due to this secruity hole? I hadn't noticed that myself, but it's yet another nail in the coffin for using SBs for serious investing. I think the promise of tax-free gains is very appealing, but the risks are just not worth it to me. Given this security hole it's easier for them then to claim their data feeds occassionally "make mistakes" and i'm sure in the T&Cs it's buried away that they aren't liable, blah, blah, blah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobsta Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Back on the SB firms, it's not just the phone security but the web platform is not via SSL. I queried this when I set the account up and they claimed it was due to the large volume of data being piped to my client end. Anyone know if this is just an excuse or a reasonable explanation? Yep, that's fair enough. SSL is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut in the case of market data. All that really needs to be encrypted is your Username and Password when you log on. The Java/Flash apps used by the SB companies will take care of that encryption so it never goes across the Internet in clear text. Market data isn't previous and if they did wrap it in SSL your client (and their servers) would take a bit of a pounding doing all that bulk crypto. In IG's case I know they also use Akamai to optimise network flow - and this is easier if you're not locked into the page being HTTPS. You may have noticed with IG that you can disconnect a machine from a network, reconnect it and all the price feeds come through. However, if you go to actually do anything it'll force you to log in again. It's a well designed architecture IMO. It's a huge challenge doing near-real time trading across the Internet - esp when you're as popular as IG. But I also agree on the slack phone security. Cantor Index let you do all sorts of things (like rolling futures) just by quoting your account number! Fortunately one of those things isn't initiating funds withdrawals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatesy Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 Yep, that's fair enough. SSL is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut in the case of market data. All that really needs to be encrypted is your Username and Password when you log on. The Java/Flash apps used by the SB companies will take care of that encryption so it never goes across the Internet in clear text. Market data isn't previous and if they did wrap it in SSL your client (and their servers) would take a bit of a pounding doing all that bulk crypto. In IG's case I know they also use Akamai to optimise network flow - and this is easier if you're not locked into the page being HTTPS. You may have noticed with IG that you can disconnect a machine from a network, reconnect it and all the price feeds come through. However, if you go to actually do anything it'll force you to log in again. It's a well designed architecture IMO. It's a huge challenge doing near-real time trading across the Internet - esp when you're as popular as IG. But I also agree on the slack phone security. Cantor Index let you do all sorts of things (like rolling futures) just by quoting your account number! Fortunately one of those things isn't initiating funds withdrawals. Thanks Bobsta, that makes me feel quite a lot better about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernull Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 loos like more people being robed: http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z49/kiw.../stopdump-1.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbs7 Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 loos like more people being robed: http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z49/kiw.../stopdump-1.png That is just so blatant it is incredible, but doesn't surprise me one bit. Whatever the FSA say please remember these guys are bookies and Gambling Law in the UK recognises gambling as a grey area of law which is why gambling debts are not enforceable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobsta Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 loos like more people being robed: http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z49/kiw.../stopdump-1.png Could you let us know who (ie which company) this is please? I'd like to make sure I never used them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgnao Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 looks like more peoplesuckers being robbedhad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinBrick Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 Could you let us know who (ie which company) this is please? I'd like to make sure I never used them! If you follow the link, there is no indication of the source of these charts. There is also no reference to spreadbetting per se. No other chart from any source I can find shows gold going anywhere near the lows on these - ca. $891 - for the period in question, 1 to 3 July. Can't believe everything you read on t'Interweb . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobsta Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 If you follow the link, there is no indication of the source of these charts. Can't believe everything you read on t'Interweb . . . I don't have a problem believing Ker... If you look at the logo on his(?) original post it matches up with GCI Financial - http://www.gcitrading.com/ - and I'd have to agree with cgnao on this one. They appear to be a tin-pot outfit based in Belize. Hmmm, you pays yer money.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexreeve Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 I don't have a problem believing Ker... If you look at the logo on his(?) original post it matches up with GCI Financial - http://www.gcitrading.com/ - and I'd have to agree with cgnao on this one. They appear to be a tin-pot outfit based in Belize. Hmmm, you pays yer money.... I've seen a couple of faintly suspicious downspikes on igindex, but nothing remotely like those in ker's chart, that's appalling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinBrick Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 I don't have a problem believing Ker... If you look at the logo on his(?) original post it matches up with GCI Financial - http://www.gcitrading.com/ - and I'd have to agree with cgnao on this one. They appear to be a tin-pot outfit based in Belize. Hmmm, you pays yer money.... I have absolutely no problem believing him either, and I'm sure the chart he originally posted was for real. The more recent one of the USD gold price over the last few days has no similar identifying logos or symbols. The person who put it up on their photo collection makes no reference in it to spreadbetting. To be clear, I have no difficulty accepting that there can be errors in SB firms feeds or that they may unscrupulously fiddle prices in their favour. I don't, however, believe they would do it so obviously that it wouldn't deceive anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobsta Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 I have absolutely no problem believing him either, and I'm sure the chart he originally posted was for real. The more recent one of the USD gold price over the last few days has no similar identifying logos or symbols. Ah, OK. Apologies... I hadn't clocked that they were from different sources. Yup, fully understand your point now. Let's get back to Silver eh?! ... Any predictions for Sunday night / Monday?.... cgnao, does your source concede that the air-raid is done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saberu Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 I think I would have saved the robbery comment for the second email... I know a little about software and I think it is laughable that such a thing as a "bad tick" exists, all it is is a tracker. It tracks a number, there should be nothing fancy going on! It's definitely manipulation in these cases and probably most cases, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these institutions have planned instability randomised into the system to catch these close stops. As someone else said, just widen your spread so that the stop is lower, it's highly unlikely it would be hit then assuming your not unlucky and contending with huge manipulation in the real market at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe90 Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 I can't speak to the examples in the charts, but I have experienced similar very temporary up/down movements from time to time with IG, but infrequently. When discussed with them it appeared to be cause by a switch between their underlying futures feeds i.e. which they are tracking. Whilst it appeared on the tick charts, it didn't trigger stops. In other words it was purely a techie charting display "blip" not a "real" quoted price and not a stop hunt. I don't use either high leverage or very tight stops if using SBs to avoid even the possibility of stop hunting etc. Bearing in mind stop hunting happens in the underlying markets in any event around known S/R areas. So place stops accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notanewmember Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 Thats probably why I have largely given up on SBetting, and going more on position trading using actual shares to ignore daily noise. I think the only way to make money on SBetting is to probably put on a bet at £100 per point go long or short by flipping a coin, set a target stop price 50 pips away, and then walk away from the computer for a few hours. The daily noise including bad ticks should mean you can make money that way - one hopes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChumpusRex Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Could you let us know who (ie which company) this is please? I'd like to make sure I never used them! That's Saxo bank's trading platform (however, they licence it out to huge numbers of other retail CFD suppliers e.g. E-trade, Sucden, etc.). In terms of CFDs, their platform provides 'direct market access' - so you see the exchange's order book, and the price you pay is the price you see + spread - so if you're going to play with derivatives then it's one of the most transparent ways you can do it. I suspect these spikes are genuine spikes in the market - all sorts of strange stuff can happen when trading volume is virtually non-existant. Big (but not huge) trades that wouldn't normally cause much eyelid raising, can move the market substantially, especially if many of the market participants are playing it safe and not holding open orders. Of course, it could easily be a 3 rd party trying to manipulate the market. The gold market is pretty thin at the best of times. Moral of the story, is don't use leverage in a market that isn't functioning healthily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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