romans holiday Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Tempted to buy a little here. Must...fight... the urge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon junkie Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Tempted to buy a little here. Must...fight... the urge. These paper bugs are very weak IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 These paper bugs are very weak IMO. Why would I buy silver here, when I already have 30% of my worth in silver, and there is a good chance I could buy at a lower price soon?? I am not a paper bug, a silver bug, or a gold bug. I prefer diversity and then buying a currency I personally value only when it is good value as valued by the market. If the market decides to value silver below $15 then I will buy it there thankyou very much Mr Market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon junkie Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Why would I buy silver here, when I already have 30% of my worth in silver, and there is a good chance I could buy at a lower price soon?? I am not a paper bug, a silver bug, or a gold bug. I prefer diversity and then buying a currency I personally value only when it is good value as valued by the market. If the market decides to value silver below $15 then I will buy it there thankyou very much Mr Market. What does Mr Market say G&S are worth today? Who is the one relying on faith again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 What does Mr Market say G&S are worth today? Who is the one relying on faith again? Errrrr.... silver is now valued at $17.18 by the market. And a silver ounce is worth $17.18. I think, as an investor, that there are good reasons why the future market will put a higher value on silver, which is why I buy it at opportune times. How do you value silver? Let me guess. 16 silver coins should buy one gold coin. One gold coin should be worth at least $5000 dollars. Therefore silver should be worth $312... so if I can buy silver now at any pirce below $50 it is incredibly cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon junkie Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 How do you value silver? Let me guess. 16 silver coins should buy one gold coin. One gold coin should be worth at least $5000 dollars. Therefore silver should be worth $312... so if I can buy silver now at any pirce below $50 it is incredibly cheap. The answer is no - perhaps you should give me the courtesy of replying before ridiculing me with your own fanciful answer. Like I say Market says one price but you and Bubb insist the market is wrong!! that is what I call faith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 The answer is no - perhaps you should give me the courtesy of replying before ridiculing me with your own fanciful answer. Like I say Market says one price but you and Bubb insist the market is wrong!! that is what I call faith! How could I think the market price is "wrong"? The market price is what it is. The price can go up and can go down [in the short term] for a mish-mash of reasons that no individual could ever completely understand. That is why I own bullion [if I "believed" the price was going down why would I own a LOT of bullion? Why wouldn't I be selling it?]. The thing is there is also a very good chance the price could go down here, which is why I also own paper... so that I can buy at a great price. Where is the faith there? It is more a skeptical and pragmatic approach..... looking to accumulate bullion at the lowest prices. That way, you are hedging against the possibility that prices do not go to the moon. If you do not allow for this possibility then you would have an absolute faith towards silver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon junkie Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 looking to accumulate bullion at the lowest prices. It was lower - considerably lower and you didn't buy!!! How low do you expect G&S to go this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 It was lower - considerably lower and you didn't buy!!! How low do you expect G&S to go this time? I am not too worried about these fluctuations here as am keeping a large reserve for a large sell-off in all markets. If this happens, bullion prices would be hit, especially silver... and then no doubt recover. The "big one" might be a good few months away. If I find I have more than enough cash reserves soon, I would consider "averaging in" with a little of those reserves. How low could it go? If we see a bubble pop in China and another round of deleveraging, silver could go to near $10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G0ldfinger Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Yes, silver looks very cheap still. I am also very tempted to buy, but no cash left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 How do you value silver? Let me guess. 16 silver coins should buy one gold coin. One gold coin should be worth at least $5000 dollars. Therefore silver should be worth $312... so if I can buy silver now at any pirce below $50 it is incredibly cheap. You know romans, I wonder how long the above will take to actually be right sometimes... In the meantime I am itching to get rid of my dollars and yen but not just... yet. Still Christmas shopping season is upon us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 You know romans, I wonder how long the above will take to actually be right sometimes... In the meantime I am itching to get rid of my dollars and yen but not just... yet. Still Christmas shopping season is upon us. It might work out that way... but I think the greater benefit to the investor in metals will be in asset/ property deflation against both cash and metals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methinkshe Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Has anyone read this? If so, what do you think? Further, would anyone be kind enough to precis it in terms that are understandable to a complete dummy? It doesn't sound good to me. Although what I do take from it is, buy silver now (physical only) because the price could explode any minute. Or have I read that wrong? Is the Price of World Silver the Result of Legitimate Market Discovery It's quite a long article but here's an excerpt. It seems to me that there may be real stress in the wholesale physical silver market. All the factors I look at, including flows into ETFs, the shorting of SLV, the decline in COMEX silver inventories, the strong retail and institutional investment demand in silver, the now growing world industrial demand, etc., suggest tightness and the potential for a silver shortage like never before. This, in essence, is the real silver story. In spite of a large and growing concentrated short position, the price of silver suggests that it is the manipulation that is under stress. At some point, a physical silver shortage will destroy any amount of paper short selling. We may be very close to that point. When the silver shortage hits, the price will explode. On this, there is no question. Industrial users, at the very first sign of delay in silver shipments, will immediately buy or try to buy more silver than they normally buy, in order to protect against future operation-interrupting delays. This is just human nature. The world has never experienced a true silver shortage ever, so the price impact is clearly unknown. I’ll try not to overstate how high I think the price will go in a true silver shortage and how quickly it will occur, so that I don’t sound too extreme. But the price move will give new meaning to “high” and “fast.” . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 It might work out that way... but I think the greater benefit to the investor in metals will be in asset/ property deflation against both cash and metals. I had thought that too esp UK property. But now I see the utmost pig headed stupidity concerning sentiment on property that I dont think the population of the UK are going to take that until the are dragged kicking and screaming to the bottom by 2012/13 (?), and even then I bet there are those that cling on for dear life. Oh the irony. But it is the only thing they have and feel to be tangible in their lives. The UK market has proven to be the toughest I have ever seen, thanks to that sentiment. Look at it even now! The deniers and the agent bullishness knows no bounds. Maybe the outcome will be somewhere between the two. Asset/property deflation against cash and metals and/or also a massive spike in the price of metals coupled with a currency crisis/devaluation in sterling of some nasty sort in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Has anyone read this? If so, what do you think? Further, would anyone be kind enough to precis it in terms that are understandable to a complete dummy? It doesn't sound good to me. Although what I do take from it is, buy silver now (physical only) because the price could explode any minute. Or have I read that wrong? Your intuition has got the better of you. No need for a precis. fwiw I think Mr Butler is driving at is that there is simply not enough physical silver to cover the claims made on it. So if you want some you sure as hell had take delivery ASAP before everyone else does. It's a win win situation. If we have a real and lasting recovery silver is essential and thus will rocket in price. If we have a crash silver will stand next to gold as money itself, as it always used to. Conclusion. Buy lots of it quick. On the other hand you have some people think it will drop like a stone in a crash, like last time. Maybe that is right and if so it would cause a frenzy of buying IMO and soon be gone. Conclusion. Buy now, averaging in. It's cheap at 17/18 dollars anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Have lightened up on a little Yen for silver. Not a bad price here as Yen has kept relatively strong to silver when compared to the dollar. It was interesting to hear Hoye [on FBB] mention he thought there could be another wave up in gold and silver here. And then followed on by a very strong message of deflation by Barbara [the barbarian ] stating all markets were heading down. The price here could go either way and though "averaging in" a little here, with a work bonus on the way, I will also keep a solid dollar holding, besides some Yen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mustard Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Has anyone read this? If so, what do you think? Further, would anyone be kind enough to precis it in terms that are understandable to a complete dummy? It doesn't sound good to me. Although what I do take from it is, buy silver now (physical only) because the price could explode any minute. Or have I read that wrong? Your intuition has got the better of you. No need for a precis. fwiw I think Mr Butler is driving at is that there is simply not enough physical silver to cover the claims made on it. So if you want some you sure as hell had take delivery ASAP before everyone else does. It's a win win situation. If we have a real and lasting recovery silver is essential and thus will rocket in price. If we have a crash silver will stand next to gold as money itself, as it always used to. Conclusion. Buy lots of it quick. On the other hand you have some people think it will drop like a stone in a crash, like last time. Maybe that is right and if so it would cause a frenzy of buying IMO and soon be gone. Conclusion. Buy now, averaging in. It's cheap at 17/18 dollars anyway. Do you think the "gold money" silver in vaults is really there? Should we be suspicious of their claims and buy coins and bars instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njpurser Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Has anyone read this? If so, what do you think? Further, would anyone be kind enough to precis it in terms that are understandable to a complete dummy? It doesn't sound good to me. Although what I do take from it is, buy silver now (physical only) because the price could explode any minute. Or have I read that wrong? Your intuition has got the better of you. No need for a precis. fwiw I think Mr Butler is driving at is that there is simply not enough physical silver to cover the claims made on it. So if you want some you sure as hell had take delivery ASAP before everyone else does. It's a win win situation. If we have a real and lasting recovery silver is essential and thus will rocket in price. If we have a crash silver will stand next to gold as money itself, as it always used to. Conclusion. Buy lots of it quick. On the other hand you have some people think it will drop like a stone in a crash, like last time. Maybe that is right and if so it would cause a frenzy of buying IMO and soon be gone. Conclusion. Buy now, averaging in. It's cheap at 17/18 dollars anyway. I agree. The fundamentals are superb, looking ahead ten or fifteen years. I really think gold 5-10k, silver 500-1000$ by 2020. Time to retire then.... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPCsoYESTERDAY Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Have lightened up on a little Yen for silver. Not a bad price here as Yen has kept relatively strong to silver when compared to the dollar. It was interesting to hear Hoye [on FBB] mention he thought there could be another wave up in gold and silver here. And then followed on by a very strong message of deflation by Barbara [the barbarian ] stating all markets were heading down. The price here could go either way and though "averaging in" a little here, with a work bonus on the way, I will also keep a solid dollar holding, besides some Yen. Romans - please don't misinterpret the following question as a dig ( I am trying to evaluate whether your methods have proved advantageous) when you lightened up on silver at $14, is it more expensive in yen today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Romans - please don't misinterpret the following question as a dig ( I am trying to evaluate whether your methods have proved advantageous) when you lightened up on silver at $14, is it more expensive in yen today? The advantage for me was/is in managing risk and uncertainty [perhaps a subjective advantage]. It is a little more expensive in Yen buying a little silver today compared to selling a little back then. Though the nominal numbers are obviously important, I do not worry too much about them. Other concerns sometimes trump the numbers. For example, back then I wanted to raise more cash in order to cover the risk of another deflationary downleg. Now I am pretty much comfortable with my cash position and feel I could "afford" to buy more metal while keeping other bases covered. I give as much importance to my own tolerance for risk and my own psychology [no matter what happens in the market] as I do to nominal "profits". The way I see it, the numbers can be a distraction at times when your end goal is to accumulate bullion while staying in the "comfort zone"... when the market is in the twilight zone. I also wanted to lighten up a little on Yen, as bought when it was cheaper.... and now also have a good dollar position [which I will continue to add to]. I am not too concerned about logical consistency when it comes to investment. I think logic can take you down the garden path at times.... and like to counter-balance it with my instincts and intuitions etc. Basically, I am sticking with a large cash hedge in US dollars and Yen [hedge for lower silver prices] while also starting to both "average in" to silver, and add to the cash [dollars] hedge with further sources of income. No change to the basic strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sideshow Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Silver has been enabled for registered Bullion Vault users. I still only to be able to see the gold market though. Can anyone else see the BV silver market yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sideshow Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 I see the London silver vault now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorSolar Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 I see the London silver vault now. Whats the spread between bid and ask? I havent got access yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sideshow Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Whats the spread between bid and ask? I havent got access yet Currently 343 GBP kg v 346 GBP kg (0.87%). I believe the commission is tiered the same as gold purchases. I think that all users were sent an e-mail asking if they would be interested in participating in early access: Dear BullionVault user, You can now buy, own and sell silver at BullionVault, storing it securely at low cost in the London vault. It works in just the same way as you already deal and hold gold. There is no VAT sales tax to pay. Our fees – detailed below – are the lowest you will find. We will be telling the wider world over the next few days and weeks, but want to give you early access. Given the recent price action, however, there may be something of a rush. So to keep the market balanced, access is being widened on a first-come, first-served basis. If you are keen to trade silver, PLEASE REPLY to this email. You will then join our priority list, and receive email notification the moment that silver dealing is activated on your account. All funded BullionVault clients will be enabled by January 2nd. If you are happy to wait until then, there is NO NEED to reply. Here are the facts you need: #1. Silver Dealing Commission Runs independent of gold, but is charged at the same rates. So you'll pay 0.8% on your first $30,000-worth of silver, 0.4% on the next $30,000 and so on, regardless of your gold holdings. #2. Silver Custody Charges Also independent of gold, but slightly higher, because silver takes up more physical space in the vault. You'll pay 0.04% per month on the silver you hold (minimum $8 charge). The annual rate is 0.48%. #3. Silver Vaulting, Larger Deals & Withdrawal Silver is available in London only for the time being. Larger orders for one tonne or more (approx. $500,000) can be dealt direct on main market. Please telephone for details. As with gold, physical withdrawal out of the vault is available but not recommended. On silver, it will cost 10% plus VAT (currently 15%) and is only possible in whole 1,000-ounce bars. If you have any questions or need any assistance, please contact us and we'll be happy to help. To join our priority silver waiting list, PLEASE REPLY to this email. Early access accounts were enabled today: Dear BullionVault user, Silver dealing has been enabled on your account, and you are ready to buy. Thank you for your reply. There is no need to open a separate account, not unless you use BullionVault for a self-invested UK pension. (Silver is not allowed under SIPP or SSAS rules. IRA accounts for US users can hold BullionVault silver.) Just as with gold, all silver is fully allocated, and it belongs to you the moment you buy it. Dealing is settled instantaneously inside the London vault. Your silver holding is proven from the next day's Daily Audit. There are five key differences you need to know: #1. Gross Weight, Not Fine London silver takes the form of 1,000 troy oz Good Delivery bars, assayed to be 999 parts pure silver per thousand. In line with standard bullion market practice, all silver bought and sold at BullionVault is accounted gross, not fine. #2. Silver Dealing Commission This runs independent of gold, but is charged at the same rates. So you'll pay 0.8% on your first $30,000-worth of silver, 0.4% on the next $30,000 and so on, regardless of your gold holdings. #3. Silver Custody Charges Also independent of gold, but slightly higher, because silver takes up more physical space in the vault. You'll pay 0.04% per month on the silver you hold (minimum $8 charge). The annual rate is 0.48%. Reserved bars are available on holdings of 1,000 troy oz and above (31.1kg). Reserving a bar costs 0.10%. Custody rises to 0.06% per month. There is no fee to release your reserved bars, ready for dealing. #4. Larger Silver Deals Larger orders for one tonne of silver or more ($500,000 upwards) can be dealt direct on main market. Please telephone for details. #5. Physical Silver Withdrawal As with gold, physical withdrawal of silver is available but not recommended. Withdrawals can only take the form of whole 1,000 troy oz bars, with a charge of 10% plus VAT (currently charged at 15% by HM Revenue & Customs). The cost to withdraw one tonne - London's standard physical dealing amount - is 2.5% plus VAT. I would just give them a call if you are interested in buying soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 I found this chart interesting. Silver, as you'd expect, shows a "leveraged" rise compared to the rises in gold. Yet, at the last parabolic rise in gold, silver did not follow suit. I believe this reflects how "frothy" gold got in that parabolic rise as investors chased only gold up. If the pattern is consistent, and if metals continue to fall, then gold should fall faster than silver here improving the ratio a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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