SILVER

[routemaster]

Silver is treated as cash. There is a limit to how much you can import/export. I think (check for yourself) France will allow €15k to leave the country and the UK will allow £10k in to the country. So make sure you are under the lower of the two.

 

If you are entering or leaving the UK to and from the EU there is no restriction on cash or a requirement for decleration.

 

When you need to declare cash

You only need to declare cash if you are carrying 10,000 euros or more (or the equivalent value in other currencies) and you are:

 

entering the UK from a country outside the EU

leaving the UK to travel directly to a country outside the EU

If you are entering or leaving the EU through an EU country other than the UK, the declaration is made in that country.

 

Also regarding cash the Custom info is-

 

Definition of cash

 

The term 'cash' covers:

 

notes and coins in any currency

bankers' drafts

cheques of any kind, including travellers' cheques

 

There is nothing specific to silver, however silver coinage would come under cash, but it would face value not metal value. ie. a £2 Britannia, 1.50 Euro Philharmonica.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/arriving/declaring-cash.htm

[bazmercer]

I bought about 40oz of coins through Dublin / Manchester airport in hand luggage. I was stopped by security as i guess a tube of a dense metal looks a little odd. They asked what they were then let me get on my way.

[romans holiday]

After listening to Prechter and Hoye's latest bear blasts I decided to lighten up just a little on silver which I am heavily in....just 10% into Yen. Still mostly in silver as I still half expect another push higher and also have a dollar position if the market drops.

[TrueNorth]

After listening to Prechter and Hoye's latest bear blasts I decided to lighten up just a little on silver which I am heavily in....just 10% into Yen. Still mostly in silver as I still half expect another push higher and also have a dollar position if the market drops.

 

Interesting to hear that RH. Hoye's forecast last week had a similar impact on me, and I lightened up on the silver a bit.

 

Didja hear Hoye's lastest (yesterday) on Howe Street?

[romans holiday]

Interesting to hear that RH. Hoye's forecast last week had a similar impact on me, and I lightened up on the silver a bit.

 

Didja hear Hoye's lastest (yesterday) on Howe Street?

Yes, Hoye is a heavyweight in my book and helped me make my decision, though a smallish one as I have only started to lighten up a little. I still think we might see a bit more life in this wave up before it rolls over. Still have my eyes on a ratio of 60.

 

I am still mostly in silver, and if it does turn down here I am not too concerned as I see the larger trend being up... also could be a good buying op with cash and gold positions....... if it goes low enough.

[id5]

I’ve heard some despicable* people take advantage of the blue gate

 

Regional airports are often under staffed and can’t afford to open the red and green gates (especially if no flights from outside the EU ever arrive at the airport/terminal. So you could fly from the USA to Paris, change planes and walk straight through customs on returning to the UK.

 

*

Because there are direct flights from the US to UK and then to the regional's you would have to spend a few days in Paris to ensure that you do not get tracked, if you do you may find someone waiting for you to come off the plane. Travelling 'outside of the normal flight patterns' triggers a warning flag which is why drug barons use different mules on different legs of a trip. Fred takes to 'A' Jane takes it from 'A' to 'B', Peter take another load to 'A' then Fred takes it to 'B'. Students are often used because of the free travel and stop offs. They do not have as many people on the desk because they are not often after small fry, they use computers and analytics to discover the routes and track with searches and seizures often happening outside of the airport.

[id5]

There’s no VAT to pay if you are travelling in to the UK from another EU country....

 

If you are entering or leaving the UK to and from the EU there is no restriction on cash or a requirement for decleration.

....

Both ziknik and RMC are right where an individual is concerned in the EU but if you move more than €15K in a calendar year you become subject to Money Laundering laws, more than £67K in total value and you become subject to VAT law. If you pay for the goods in the UK by using a UK bank account or from the foreign account of a UK resident and have the goods couriered to you by anyone then you are subject to Distance Selling laws. Trip over any of these and the individual can suddenly become a sole trader and you end up under a whole bunch of other laws.

 

Just keep below the personal transaction €15K limit in the EU or just tell them before hand what you are going to do and go through Customs armed with the declaration, exemption, etc.

 

[routemaster]

Both ziknik and RMC are right where an individual is concerned in the EU but if you move more than €15K in a calendar year you become subject to Money Laundering laws, more than £67K in total value and you become subject to VAT law. If you pay for the goods in the UK by using a UK bank account or from the foreign account of a UK resident and have the goods couriered to you by anyone then you are subject to Distance Selling laws. Trip over any of these and the individual can suddenly become a sole trader and you end up under a whole bunch of other laws.

 

Just keep below the personal transaction €15K limit in the EU or just tell them before hand what you are going to do and go through Customs armed with the declaration, exemption, etc.

 

 

The money laundering regulations come into action at point of transaction ie. at a bank or in this case with Coin Invest Direct. Once you go over the year's limit CID suspended your account until you provide them with extra ID. There is no requirement to repeat this again at the UK/EU boarder.

 

As for someone bringing something from the EU for you, that is just fine as long a you are not paying them or their "out of pocket" expensenes, then it remains as a gift.

 

The VAT limit of £68,000, as of 1st May, 2009, is applicable to businesses and not private individual's personal transaction(s).

 

 

Who can register for VAT

You can register for VAT if you're in business and you are one of these:

 

an individual

a partnership

a company

a club

an association

a charity

any other organisation or group of people acting together under a particular name, such as an educational or health institution, exhibition, conference, etc

For VAT purposes, the individual or organisation that is in business is known as a 'taxable person'.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/register/...to-register.htm

 

What is business for VAT purposes?

You can only register for VAT if you're in business. HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) defines a business as a continuing activity involving getting paid for providing goods or services - in money or another form of payment such as in-kind or barter.

 

You are in business when, for example:

 

you earn an income by carrying on a trade, vocation or profession - by being self-employed or through another entity such as a limited company

you provide membership benefits as a club, association or similar body in return for a subscription or other form of payment

you provide certain other activities as a club or other recreational body, charity or other non-profit making body

you charge admission to a premises

To be in business, these activities must have a degree of frequency and scale and be continued over a period of time.

 

Even if your activities have some or all the characteristics of a business, they may not be considered a business for VAT purposes if they are essentially a recreation or hobby, or an isolated transaction. So if you only make occasional VAT taxable supplies, or your supplies are minimal, it may be that you don't need to register for VAT. The one-off or infrequent sale of your personal belongings at a car boot sale or auction, for example, would fall into this category - but buying goods for resale on a regular basis is definitely a business activity.

[Oddball]

Yes, Hoye is a heavyweight in my book and helped me make my decision, though a smallish one as I have only started to lighten up a little. I still think we might see a bit more life in this wave up before it rolls over. Still have my eyes on a ratio of 60.

 

I am still mostly in silver, and if it does turn down here I am not too concerned as I see the larger trend being up... also could be a good buying op with cash and gold positions....... if it goes low enough.

 

 

This time last year I had a very large physical silver position. This with hindsight now seems outrageous. I was guilty of reading too much Butler and Hommel, y’know “Buy with both hands” and “All in.”

 

I remember reading Hoye at the time and thinking humph…. no way. Well as it turned out Hoye nailed it and I lost out big time – on paper anyway. Luckily I was eventually bailed out by sterling collapsing, but a missed opportunity all the same.

 

On the positive side this gave me the kick up the rear that I needed to take a more rational approach and start sorting the wheat from the chaff, the probable from the wishful.

 

I like you rate Bob Hoye and his research highly. His analysis into previous great busts gives a good indication as to the powerful currents flowing in the markets at this time. This won’t play out exactly as we’ve seen; in fact due to the extremity of the situation and the vast amounts of stimulus applied the declines and rallies may be more volatile.

 

Just to recap – the previous administrations 1873 (non-gold standard) and 1929 (gold standard) chucked the kitchen sink at the bust, stimulus wise and failed to avert deflation. The 1929-32 decline was dotted with six bear market rallies and silver followed the markets down. Silver only performed well during the subsequent recovery.

 

 

Throw in there the present demand destruction (Japans dramatic fall in exports) and this is enough for me to stand aside of the long silver market unless we get an extreme buying opportunity i.e. G/S ratio +100:1

 

Don’t get me wrong, and before some of the more hardened gold/silver bugs start reaching for the flamethrower I’m uber bullish on the PM sector. I just don’t think short/medium term silver will do too well. Longer term I’d have thought silver will be somewhere in the £60 –£ 80 and oz region – just a guess.

 

[romans holiday]

Don’t get me wrong, and before some of the more hardened gold/silver bugs start reaching for the flamethrower I’m uber bullish on the PM sector. I just don’t think short/medium term silver will do too well. Longer term I’d have thought silver will be somewhere in the £60 –£ 80 and oz region – just a guess.

Yes, I also think deflation is the big picture, and think the market will remain very volatile..... alternating between inflation and deflation trades. Buy silver on weakness and sell for Yen on strength, rinse and repeat. [only with my trading funds mind].

 

Gold is not volatile enough to trade. I think it has settled down and I now consider profits taken in accumulating ounces [core position not for trading].

 

A couple of surprises in store could be a relatively stable gold price [in dollars] and commodities crashing again. I doubt Hommel and co will see this coming.

 

Throw in there the present demand destruction (Japans dramatic fall in exports) and this is enough for me to stand aside of the long silver market unless we get an extreme buying opportunity i.e. G/S ratio +100:1

I believe the monetary component might give silver more of a bounce than the more mundane commodities [also keeping in mind that investors are concerned about currencies]. I reckon it would be quite a good buy at 80:1 or so. It will be interesting to see how the "band" plays out. As a metal-buying deflationist, I am thinking of upping the band from the usual lower 50:1 and upper 80:1 to maybe something like 55/60:1 to 85/90:1.... and slowly move out of one into the other as the band width is approached.

[ziknik]

If you are entering or leaving the UK to and from the EU there is no restriction on cash or a requirement for decleration.

Thanks for the correction. I didn’t know that. And thanks to id5 for the extra information

 

Also regarding cash the Custom info is-

...

There is nothing specific to silver, however silver coinage would come under cash, but it would face value not metal value. ie. a £2 Britannia, 1.50 Euro Philharmonica.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/arriving/declaring-cash.htm

Silver IS currency.

http://www.iso.org/iso/currency_codes_list-1

 

I bought about 40oz of coins through Dublin / Manchester airport in hand luggage. I was stopped by security as i guess a tube of a dense metal looks a little odd. They asked what they were then let me get on my way.

Were you stopped in Dublin or Manchester?

[ziknik]

Because there are direct flights from the US to UK and then to the regional's you would have to spend a few days in Paris to ensure that you do not get tracked, if you do you may find someone waiting for you to come off the plane.

...

I know someone who has done it.

 

This person flew from Beijing to Manchester via Paris (because these were the cheapest and quickest flights) with a small sack of silver Panda’s. He was prepared to pay VAT when we returned to the UK.

 

At Manchester (Terminal 2 I think), there were barriers on the red and green exits so he asked a security guard where to declare goods (without naming the goods). The security guard said, “Go through there”, pointing to the EU Arrivals gate.

 

He walked through to blue gate and into Arrivals. He asked another security guard where to declare goods (without naming the goods). This security guard said, “You’ve come through Customs, you cannot go back. Go home”.

 

So he left and has heard nothing of it

 

[id5]

I know someone who has done it.

 

This person flew from Beijing to Manchester via Paris (because these were the cheapest and quickest flights) with a small sack of silver Panda’s. He was prepared to pay VAT when we returned to the UK.

 

...

The route was the cheapest or quickest and would be 'inside of the normal flight patterns' so unless they were of interest for another reason they would not get stopped.

[routemaster]

Silver IS currency.

http://www.iso.org/iso/currency_codes_list-1

 

 

As far as the HMRC are concerned as cash, silver as an entity is not cash ie. a 1kg ingot.

[ziknik]

Also regarding cash the Custom info is-

Definition of cash

 

The term 'cash' covers:

 

notes and coins in any currency

bankers' drafts

cheques of any kind, including travellers' cheques

Silver IS currency

[id5]

The money laundering regulations come into action at point of transaction ie. at a bank or in this case with Coin Invest Direct.

...

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/register/...to-register.htm

If you buy more than €15K of PM's from dealer in one calendar year, or the dealer believes that you will buy more than that limit then the dealer has to take your details including your address under the Money Laundering laws. It is as I said, you become subject to that law. Most dealers in PM's are in the system registered as High Value Dealers and will have been told to report all cash purchases above that amount as suspicious activity. Some will even refuse that purchase because of the overhead involved and the risk of inspection to their business.

 

If you want to collect PM's from many different dealers then it is possible but most probably not worth the profit

 

...

As for someone bringing something from the EU for you, that is just fine as long a you are not paying them or their "out of pocket" expensenes, then it remains as a gift.

...

It is only a gift if the buyer is not yourself, sending someone money to buy something for you is not a gift.

 

...

The VAT limit of £68,000, as of 1st May, 2009, is applicable to businesses and not private individual's personal transaction(s).

...

m"]http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/register/...to-register.htm[/url]

From the link that you provided 'You are in business when, for example: you earn an income by carrying on a trade, vocation or profession'

 

When you come to sell the PM's you need to apply some thought, this is why I keep on saying in many other threads 'Work out how you are going to sell you PM's before you buy them'. If you sell your PM's (especially silver as it is classed as a commodity and in certain forms cash) with a value is greater than £68K and you are advertising it for sale on eBay or at an auction to gain the best result, then HMRC can take the view that you are 'in the investment business and acting as a sole trader'. At that point you will become subject to VAT law as well.

 

More often than not as an individual trying something like this once will be fine and you will not be caught but many try it more than once and do get caught.

 

 

[routemaster]

Silver IS currency

 

Silver coins with a face value is cash, but a lump of silver is as much as a currency as a Mercedes Benz car.

 

I agree silver and gold are the monetary metals and are the superior grandfather currencys, however no matter how much you try and wish it, the HMRC do not class it as such. Silver is not cash if its not a bank note or coin.

[routemaster]

From the link that you provided 'You are in business when, for example: you earn an income by carrying on a trade, vocation or profession'

 

When you come to sell the PM's you need to apply some thought, this is why I keep on saying in many other threads 'Work out how you are going to sell you PM's before you buy them'. If you sell your PM's (especially silver as it is classed as a commodity and in certain forms cash) with a value is greater than £68K and you are advertising it for sale on eBay or at an auction to gain the best result, then HMRC can take the view that you are 'in the investment business and acting as a sole trader'. At that point you will become subject to VAT law as well.

 

More often than not as an individual trying something like this once will be fine and you will not be caught but many try it more than once and do get caught.

I must say, id5 you make a very valid point about an exit strategy from silver, which does require consideration.

 

Silver has a number of down sides and as such I prefer to have a "Gold Cash ISA" of sovereigns and britannias which completely avoids any worry about VAT and CGT*.

 

*The current Capital Gains Tax allowance for 2009-10 is £10,100, above that one incurs a flat rate of 18% taxation.

 

Even if your activities have some or all the characteristics of a business, they may not be considered a business for VAT purposes if they are essentially a recreation or hobby, or an isolated transaction. So if you only make occasional VAT taxable supplies, or your supplies are minimal, it may be that you don't need to register for VAT. The one-off or infrequent sale of your personal belongings at a car boot sale or auction, for example, would fall into this category - but buying goods for resale on a regular basis is definitely a business activity.

 

I would personally not be comfortable about selling silver in multiple sales, over a period of time on ebay and would prefer to sell it back to the dealers which I had bought from, to avoid as much as possible any incursion into the realms of business activity.

[routemaster]

It is only a gift if the buyer is not yourself, sending someone money to buy something for you is not a gift.

 

 

I am looking into this a bit further.

 

The scenario is that a buyer purchases from an online coin dealer and has it is sent to an EU address to which it can be received. Now, the buyer could already be there or travels to collect it and brings it back to the UK themselves.

 

However, if someone else (ie. a friend) brings it to the UK for you and that person receives no financial benefit (profit or costs of travel etc.) and did not purchase the product then is that not O.K.??? I used the procedure relating to gifts as no cash changes hands, between the buyer and friend.

[id5]

I am looking into this a bit further.

 

The scenario is that a buyer purchases from an online coin dealer and has it is sent to an EU address to which it can be received. Now, the buyer could already be there or travels to collect it and brings it back to the UK themselves.

 

However, if someone else (ie. a friend) brings it to the UK for you and that person receives no financial benefit (profit or costs of travel etc.) and did not purchase the product then is that not O.K.??? I used the procedure relating to gifts as no cash changes hands, between the buyer and friend.

It is under the Distance Selling set of laws. The 'someone else' becomes the courier regardless of any profit that is in it for them because they are not party to the payments and if they were party then they are at best acting as your import/export agent. If 'someone else' pays for the goods and expects to make a profit or there was a risk that you could refuse to buy the goods then they would become a 'supplier' as they are acting as a business. The 'final destination' is your address not the address of your courier. The amount of VAT is payable at the rate of the country that the final destination is in once the supplier expects to exceed the threshold of that country.

 

All of the VAT regulations on distance selling were tightened up after the VAT carousel frauds that went on a while ago, although I am sure that there must be a hole in them somewhere I have not found one yet that I can take advantage of legally. It can be still worthwhile though for an individual to take a trip to somewhere else and buy a monster box of Eagles for example.

 

[ziknik]

Silver coins with a face value is cash, but a lump of silver is as much as a currency as a Mercedes Benz car.

You should take your disagreement up with the ISO. I will agree with you when I see silver removed from the list of currencies.

 

Until then – Silver IS currency

http://www.iso.org/iso/currency_codes_list-1

 

…

no matter how much you try and wish it, the HMRC do not class it as such. Silver is not cash if its not a bank note or coin.

I have nothing to hand that I can provide as evidence to prove you wrong on this point expect to say – "I don’t believe HMRC would be stupid enough to leave such a big loophole".

 

If I ever leave or enter any country with silver (or gold), I will ensure that I am below the £/€/$ threshold for taking cash abroad.

 

Did you hear about the two Japanese men who were travelling with US Bonds? They faced seizure of over $40bn of bonds for failing to declare. Bonds don’t exactly fit the definition of ‘cash’ you provided earlier. If a US Bond can be deemed to be a ‘note’ – a silver bar (or lump) can be deemed to be a ‘coin’.

[routemaster]

You should take your disagreement up with the ISO. I will agree with you when I see silver removed from the list of currencies.

 

Until then – Silver IS currency

http://www.iso.org/iso/currency_codes_list-1

 

 

 

I have nothing to hand that I can provide as evidence to prove you wrong on this point expect to say – "I don’t believe HMRC would be stupid enough to leave such a big loophole".

 

 

If I ever leave or enter any country with silver (or gold), I will ensure that I am below the £/€/$ threshold for taking cash abroad.

 

Did you hear about the two Japanese men who were traveling with US Bonds? They faced seizure of over $40bn of bonds for failing to declare. Bonds don’t exactly fit the definition of ‘cash’ you provided earlier. If a US Bond can be deemed to be a ‘note’ – a silver bar (or lump) can be deemed to be a ‘coin’.

 

 

The ISO are not policing the boarders, what counts is the HMRC's edict, as I have provided.

 

As regards to the Japs and their US bonds, a US bond is a dollar dominated IOU note with a face value that is honourable by the US government. An unminted, faceless piece of gold or silver is a commodity and no one has to honour it as payment.

 

So if you take your gold out of the EU and lets say it's a 1kg bar of gold, with no face value, so would the customs chose to value it at spot price or buy price, sell price for an ingot?

 

Now, he comes an interesting scenario you have to declare and/or get stopped and questioned about your 1kg bar of gold, and for argument's sake let's say they value it at spot price, so this would mean you would be above the 10,000 euro threshold. However, I am traveling through at the same time with 80 X one troy ounce gold britannias, which would be approximately 2.5kg of gold, however brittanias are legal tender, honourable to the value of £100 each, so my 80 brits come under the limit at £8,000. I could do even better with sovereigns as I could travel with 8000 X £1 sovereigns having a net weight of 58kgs in gold!

[ziknik]

...

However, I am traveling through at the same time with 80 X one troy ounce gold britannias, which would be approximately 2.5kg of gold, however brittanias are legal tender, honourable to the value of £100 each, so my 80 brits come under the limit at £8,000. I could do even better with sovereigns as I could travel with 8000 X £1 sovereigns having a net weight of 58kgs in gold!

If what you have written was true*, I would take my salary in gold sovereigns.

 

* It isn't true.

[id5]

The ISO are not policing the boarders, what counts is the HMRC's edict, as I have provided.

 

As regards to the Japs and their US bonds, a US bond is a dollar dominated IOU note with a face value that is honourable by the US government. An unminted, faceless piece of gold or silver is a commodity and no one has to honour it as payment.

 

So if you take your gold out of the EU and lets say it's a 1kg bar of gold, with no face value, so would the customs chose to value it at spot price or buy price, sell price for an ingot?

 

Now, he comes an interesting scenario you have to declare and/or get stopped and questioned about your 1kg bar of gold, and for argument's sake let's say they value it at spot price, so this would mean you would be above the 10,000 euro threshold. However, I am traveling through at the same time with 80 X one troy ounce gold britannias, which would be approximately 2.5kg of gold, however brittanias are legal tender, honourable to the value of £100 each, so my 80 brits come under the limit at £8,000. I could do even better with sovereigns as I could travel with 8000 X £1 sovereigns having a net weight of 58kgs in gold!

The face value of a coin is the minimum that the coin is worth as legal tender, in the UK that means that a court would accept in payment for a fine or other debt payable to the court.

 

HMRC take the market value of the coin not its face value, so about £620 at todays prices.

[romans holiday]

I think it would be fair to say that if silver went below 13.80 the current uptrend would be broken. If this happened, Z would be the winner... but then I think this short term current trend is still up.

Everything down today. 13.80 still holding thus far.

 

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