enrieb

Oh, and didn't you notice, we already replaced gold as money with paper.

Can I borrowed your lawnmower and replaced it with an IOU

Realistically the thing limiting how much gold you can store at home is risk, having all your gold or assets at home is very high risk, you would not be diversified at all. There must also be a limit to how much bullion you can have insured at home and if it is insured then the insurance company knows you have gold and probably would be forced to inform the government if it came down to gold confiscation. Or you could just hold your entire life saving at home uninsured. I do hold the majority of my gold physically and I will be diversifying by making future purchases into BV and Gold Money for ease of trading.

I have no axe to grind with either Goldmoney or BV. However, you should be aware that your Gold is still subject to government scrutiny and control as the customers of Egold found out last year.

 

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2007/April/07_crm_301.html

 

The four-count indictment, handed down on April 24, 2007, and unsealed today, charges E‑Gold Ltd; Gold & Silver Reserve, Inc.; and their owners Dr. Douglas L. Jackson, of Satellite Beach, Fla.; Reid A. Jackson, of Melbourne, Fla.; and Barry K. Downey, of Woodbine, Md., each with one count of conspiracy to launder monetary instruments, one count of conspiracy to operate an unlicensed money transmitting business, one count of operating an unlicensed money transmitting business under federal law and one count of money transmission without a license under D.C. law.

I agree that wherever you store your gold, there is always some level of risk. I like the idea of gold money/BV and being able to buy and sell instantly by clicking your mouse, but I personally prefer holding physical. Though there are also risks to holding physical, if you have a large sum of your assets in physical gold you may have to store them in a bank safety deposit box, which is again monitored by the government tax minions, I believe that in the 1930s US gold confiscation that safety deposit boxes could only be opened in the presence of a tax official.

Peter Schiff spoke about this risk issue on his latest radio broadcast and about the Perth Mint story that was going around eariler this week(funny this story should happen at the same time as a smackdown, you would think there would be more available if people were selling because the price has peaked)

You could choose to store your gold at home in a safe, but what if it were stolen and you lost your life savings? The best option is to diversify the way you hold and store your gold, some in BV, Goldmoney, Perth mint as well as keeping physical, you could keep some in a bank safety deposit box, perhaps keep some at home in a safe and some at your parents house.

S Korea pension fund shuns US debt

Last updated: March 26 2008 19:39

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/6dcf5f86-fb67-11dc...;nclick_check=1

I have my worries as well. Bullion vault is great all the time the system stays reasonably stable. What if things go very badly wrong? Thats where gold is king but not if you don't actually have it. Saying that I'm heavily exposed to BV. Ideally I'd like to sell at a peak and then buy back physical in a dip. A good opportunity has just been missed, dooh. Could do with some Britannia's to see off CGT.

 

You think theres any chance that they might change the cgt rules on gold when it booms big time?

There is always a risk that they could change the way they tax gold with cgt in the future, if the gold price goes high enough the government will want their cut and the general public who don't own gold wont have much sympathy for people who own gold, we will be labeled as greedy speculators and fair game in the way that some people over at the 'other site' have developed almost a hatred of anyone who makes money out of property.

I also think it is possible that the UK government could charge VAT on gold like that do with silver. That would put an extra £87 on the price of a £500Krugerrand.

Still I think its good to own at least some Britannia's and sovereigns while the cgt exemption exists.

(1) In catalysts, Palladium can substitute Platinum at a rate of 2.5-3 times more Palladium than Platinum. Hence, once the price of Platinum is higher by that rate, car producers might start buying more Palladium. This could soon be the case and could let Palladium surge more.

I was looking into this last year after one of my friends stated up a recovery business and told me how much the price of scrap cars had gone up, the cats made upto one third of the price of the scrap car. Last year the price of a cat at a scrap dealer was around £35 if it contained both 'bricks'.

Sadly I lost the links and information I had on this when I last formated my PC but I can still vaugely recall the data.

As I understand it there are two basic types of catalytic converters, the ones for petrol engines can use either platinum or palladium whereas the converters for diesel engines must use a combination of platinum and palladium. There are two 'bricks' in a catalytic converter and sometimes the second brick can 'blow out' and only be worth half the scrap price, scrap dealers can check this by the scientific method of poking a stick up one end to see if the second brick is intact.

You can do an Internet search for the price of a new catalytic converters at car parts dealers to see the difference in prices between diesel and petrol cats. You also will find when you go to a exhaust specialist to have your car exhaust repaired or changed that they will keep your old exhaust/catalytic converter as part of the deal. Some unsrupulus car parts dealers could charge you the price of a platinum/palladium diesel cat for your petrol car when you petrol car uses the cheaper palladium cat. I remember reading about how attempts are being made to replace the platinum/palladium with gold or even silver, but I have no information about how thats progressing. (Who knows maybe Realist Bear will create a particle accelerator and make platinum out of thin air)

That amount palladium/platinum varies depending on the engine size of the car, I am not quite sure where I heard it but I think that it may have been Nick Barisheff who said in an interview that cars can contain upto a 7 gram combination of palladium/platinum and catalytic converters for large trucks/ buses could contain upto 20 grams.

The problems begin when you attempt to reclaim the metal from the catalytic converter as cutting them open will give a of carcinogenic dust. Strong acids are used to reclaim platinum from ceramic bead catalysts and these acids will give off very hazardous vapor.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter2.htm

In the catalytic converter, there are two different types of catalyst at work, a reduction catalyst and an oxidation catalyst. Both types consist of a ceramic structure coated with a metal catalyst, usually platinum, rhodium and/or palladium. The idea is to create a structure that exposes the maximum surface area of catalyst to the exhaust stream, while also minimizing the amount of catalyst required, as the materials are extremely expensive. Some of the newest converters have even started to use gold mixed with the more traditional catalysts. Gold is cheaper than the other materials and could increase oxidation, the chemical reaction that reduces pollutants, by up to 40 percent [source: Kanellos].

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editoria.../2007/0330.html

Automotive Catalysts

 

Platinum, along with palladium, is in great demand by the auto industry, which soaks up 33% of annual supply. Since 1999 auto catalyst demand has more than doubled, largely because platinum has a unique ability to control and remove harmful engine emission by-products. The importance of platinum within the auto industry will continue to grow as governments around the world worlds ecologically responsible governments demand greater levels of emission control, and future demand could increase exponentially, along with price.

 

Diesel engines, already extremely common in Europe and Asia, are becoming increasingly popular in North America. Currently only platinum can be used for diesel auto catalysts, and only platinum can be used in third-world countries where sulphur levels in the fuel exceed acceptable limits.

 

Diesel cars now account for more than 50% of the market in Europe, where many models include soot filters that employ platinum as well as oxidation catalysts. European auto catalyst demand is expected to increase by 15% to 2.25 million ounces in 2007.

 

In North America many light diesel trucks will have catalysts fitted for the first time in 2007, and platinum use in larger trucks is also expected to increase. Platinum consumption by North American automotive industries is expected to rise by 5% in 2007 to 1.5 million ounces.

(2) If Russia stops Palladium exports after (1) has occurred (they've done that in the past), the price could explode (cartel/mafia like action, similar to South Africa).

A more interesting mover in the palladium and platinum price could be if the US starts to change its automobile infrastructure towards the more efficient diesel engines, above Nick Barisshef writes that the vast majority of cars in the US run on petrol. Imagine what it could do to the price of diesel and platinum if the US were to diversify just a small percentage of its automobiles into diesel.

A good reason to sell your gold?

 

Fed's rescue halted a derivatives Chernobyl

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...23/ccfed123.xml

Thanks narco that is another good read, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard has wrote some fantastic articles for the Telegraph about the financial situation he really has a great understanding of what going on and what its going to lead to.

Has anyone on here even considered selling gold/silver in the past week ?

 

Has anyone had someone point out "how much gold has gone down".

 

I suggest a reply: "That's not a lot, just look at Bear Sterns, $170 to $2" :lol:

That's how I view the situation too, when I look at what happened to northern rock and bear sterns it shows just how bad things could get and most of the losses are still hidden at the moment.House prices have to come down but the bankers and politicians don't want them to fall because if they do then all these mortgage backed securities lose even more value and more banks will go bankrupt. How far they will go to keep these asset prices up is the unknown factor.

The thought of 'what if I am wrong' did go through my head at some point during the week, so I reviewed all the fundamental reasons for gold ownership over holding other assets and cash. What happened last week will weaken the dollar, pound and euro further over the next few months the best place to be in my view is gold and pms. That is unless your an experienced market trader who knows when pick stocks and trade in and out at a profit.

Another good sign is the all economic commentators who did not see or warn about the credit bubble, subprime mortgages, CDOs, recession, the dollar losing value, Fed bailouts and the commodities bull market. Every time the stock market goes up they say the problems are all over. These people have been consistently wrong about everything and when they turn round and call the top in gold its got to be taken as a reverse economic indicator.

When I look at what could happen over the next few years owning gold seems like a wise choice. House prices will have to collapse or governments will have to inflate to keep them up, if prices do collapse the banks and stockmarkets will suffer if they choose to inflate then the currency will lose value. I don't know how its all going to play out but I feel much safer being able to hold wealth in gold.

Glad to see the weather is good for you Steve, here in the UK its snowing, how odd is that? snow at easter. If global warming is real (I understand that many people are still not convinced) then melting polar ice could make the gulf stream break down this would lower the temperature in northern Europe. Global warming real or not could be another reason to hold gold over the long term, it only takes a small amount of people to put their assets in to gold and with enough media attention it could be another catalyst. The problem of peak oil also sits outside the door, again I know that not everyone is convinced, but this week Cheney is in talks with the Saudis about increasing their oil production, it they cannot produce more it could suggest that they may be near to peak, either way this could push oil prices up even further, that is unless you own gold as the price of oil has hardly gone up in relation to gold over the past 60 years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7308509.stm

So its good to self reflect and question the reasons why you are invested in gold instead of property, dollars or financial shares. I was probably more worried last Sunday when the gold price was going up toward $1030 because I still want to add more gold at a lower price before we start to see the real high prices. A correction down to $800 or less would be great.

1-Someone mentioned an allowance for CGT of £9300, is that an allowance for gold and/or silver or all my investments?

I don't know the full details about CGT, but I do know that sovereigns and Britannias are exempt from CGT because they are classed as currency coins: legal tender. I think it depends on how much you sell and profit from in one year but others can explain it better and these links give more info. I personally will get round the issue by using friends and family to sell gold for me when it gets to a high enough level so that I do not go over my CGT limit. Also I am not sure that I trust the government will uphold CGT exemption on sovereigns and Britannias should gold become even more valuable, so I only own a small amount of Britannias and sovereigns atm.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/cg4manual/CG78308.htm

http://reviews.ebay.com/CGT-Capital-Gains-...000000001593758

http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/customsexcise701-21.html

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalW...tyType=document

2-On the delivery side, I am not confident in getting my coins deliveries at home to be honest. Can you get the first delivery at work for instance. What do you usually do?

I always buy from the shop in person, I enjoy the trip out and it helps to build up some sort of relationship with my bullion dealer, I feel better knowing where the shop is located and the faces of the people I deal with.

3-Did you add your physical PM as part of your contents insurance? Is it expensive? Is it worth it?

I do not have mine insured, but I do have them stored at a few different safe and secure locations, I probably should get them insured to be honest.

4-I always hear about the same coins: sovereigns, britannias, maples, eagles and krugs. Why are you only mentioning these ones? What makes them so valuable to you? What about the Napoleon or Wilhelm ones for example? How do you make your choice? Do you tend to buy more of the ones from the country you live in?

The advantage that the well know bullion coins have over less well know coins and buillion bars is that they are easier to sell, the only thing that may be more harder to find than a rare or obscure coin is a buyer for it. People feel more comfortable buying and selling things that they recognize like Kruggers, sovs, maples and eagles.

5-I noticed that the silver eagle 1oz 2007 is slightly cheaper than the 2008 one. Does that mean my coins may lose value every year after a new version is printed?

Perhaps the 2008 coin has so far been minted in limited numbers than the 2007 and gains a market premium because people who own 2005, 2006, 2007 coins would like to add a 2008 coin. A coin will not lose its bullion value as long as it is looked after. Proof coins are made to a higher standard and fetch a premium and a small scratch or bag mark could lower its premium value, but gold always has its bullion value. A badly damaged coin such as a sovereign recovered from jewelery may at worst case scenario still get its gold scrap value of 75% of spot price.

6-I read that the krugs are the most common ones therefore easier to sell and cheaper. Well, I just had a look on COININVESTDIRECT and the krugs are at $976 against $967 for the maples and eagles so not quite true then...?

Goldline has some maples at £494 and the krugs at £493, I expect on ebay the krugs could get a slightly higher premium due to demand, but the maples are a much more attractive coin being 24 carat compared to the 22 carat krugs, although due to maples being 24 carat they are more easily damaged whereas the krugs are a tougher coin because of the extra copper. Another reason I like to buy in person is that I get the chance to inspect the coins for damage.

http://www.goldline.co.uk/bullionCoinsPage.page

7-What makes you buy coins rather than bullion (some 1oz are available)? What if some specific coins get depreciated? Do you think coins tend to gain more value over time or is it simply for the joy of owning a specific coin like you own a nice stamp?

Coins are also classed as bullion, its just that the smaller bars have a novelty value but can be harder to sell compared to the coins which are made to a consistent standard that makes identification more straight forward.

http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/coinsorbars.html

Here is some more basic info on gold coins and bars.

http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/goldbullion.html

http://search.reviews.ebay.co.uk/members/c...atZ11116QQuqtZg

FSN radio show is not online yet.

I made the same mistake before, I woke up looking to download the show. I wonder how many confused listeners have emailed or phoned the show to complain.

Peter Schiffs weekly radio broadcast is available for download on Thursday mornings, Its pretty good, about an hour long and helps give a little more insight into whats happening during the week. It helps fill the information gap while waiting for the FSN broadcast which tends to review what has happened in a more in depth way before looking ahead.

http://www.europac.net/radioshow_archives.asp

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080321/tpl...cs-20b2d2f.html

 

Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton unveiled a second economic stimulus package on Thursday as a new poll showed her maintaining her lead over Barack Obama among Democrats. With surveys showing the economy the top issue on voters' minds, Clinton called for new steps to address a deepening housing crisis, including a $30 billion (15 billion pound) emergency fund to help states buy foreclosed properties and provide mortgage restructuring.

In Peter Schiffs latest economic commentary he mentions an article in the Wall Street Journal by opinion page writer Holman Jenkins Jr that recommended that the government buy and “bulldoze” foreclosed homes in order to prop up the values of those that remain standing.

http://www.europac.net/

I've just been looking at the prices on Goldline and I notice that Nuggets, Philharmonikers and Eagles are all out of stock, then I checked Chards ebay store to see what they have for sale and they only have 3 pages of gold coins, they usually have 6 pages.

http://www.goldline.co.uk/bullionCoinsPage.page

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Chard-Coins_W0QQc...0QQftidZ2QQtZkm

From my personal perspective I hope gold falls quite a bit more, I've been saving cash for a while now and waiting for a serious pull back. With already owning a fair amount of coins I feel good when the price shoots up yet also a little disappointed that didn't get more when the price was below $700. I don't think it will fall back anywhere near that level, though anything near $800-850 would be fantastic.

Funny emotions all round with gold or any asset for that matter and I don't think there exists an emotocon that can express the feelings, when its rising you feel great but disappointed that you didn't buy more, when its falling you can feel lousy and hesitant about buying more at the lower price, then when it rises again you kick yourself for not buying when it was cheaper.

I feel sorry for those who are new to the market and jumped in at over $1000, if they do not fully understand the gold market then they will probably be shaken out. It took me over a year of looking into the subject before I started buying. I value the time I spent time looking into gold before buying even though I missed out on a lot of early gains, yet because of this I have the confidence not to be shaken out by daily/weekly price movements. If I had not have looked into it properly I would probably have bought in 2006 and been shaken out of the market when the price fell after spiking at $725. I think sometimes when I come across posters who seem almost anti-gold I wonder if they were the ones who were shaken out in 2006.

When I see what happened Bear Stearns share holders earlier this week, it really does make me feel far more secure to be able to hold half of my wealth in my own hands.

The Dow is down almost 200, Time for another rate cut?

..Ahh feels good to put in my first post on the new gold forum. OMG the 'other' forum has become SOOOO hostile to anyone who mentions gold or inflation at any time.. the deflationists over there are really bullying anyone with a view that challenges the new 'consensus' out of the forum altogether.. So much for learning or rational debate!

Welcome drminky

Some pretty daft action going on right now. Euro falling against the dollar after a 75bps cut $983 gold $19.65 silver. Yeah, I know it's only temporary but I still can't stand the numbers

There always seems to be a lot of market noise after central bank intervention, its like a fat guy who can't swim jumping into a pond to rescue a sinking boat, the water splashes and ripples all over the place disturbing the other boats which were previously not in any difficulty. When the water settles and everything returns to normal the gold boat and the euro boat will be sailing of into the sunset while the dollar boat continues to sink.

Geeez, it's going up vertically !

 

1027

 

Correct that, 1027.85

That makes it 11.6 ounces of gold to buy the Dow, if the Dow falls when the US markets open we could see the ratio go 11 to 1.

Here is another Pluto prediction, a very bold one. Another rate cut in the am before markets open and or a banking holiday. Yes, I know, a little bearish, but the what the heck.

I was thinking the same thing, a rate cut is a real possibility should the US indices begin to tank in the day ahead. A serious downturn will prompt Fire Chief Bernanke to once more attempt to put out a fire by pouring gasoline over it.

It does look like this is indeed it

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. but it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

I think that instead of using the term 'Black Monday' to describe a bad day for the stock market a term like 'Gold Monday' has a much better ring to it and a gives much more of a positive spin on events.

Does anyone know dealers who sell smaller bags of old US silver coins in the UK? Or is it the best to look on ebay?

Chards other site '24carat' are selling 10 kilo bags of scrap 50% silver coins, they may sell in smaller quantities but they would probably be at a higher premium.

http://24carat.co.uk/silverinvestmentbagsframe.html

I liked this comment from peter schiff:

 

"backing paper money with mortgages is nothing new. The French tried it in the late 18th Century, and it lead to hyperinflation. Assignats, which were first issued in 1790 to help finance the French revolution, were backed by mortgages on confiscated church properties. Although the stolen underlying collateral did have some value, the revolutionaries saw no reason to limit how many Assignats were printed, which resulted in massive depreciation. Within three years, price controls were introduced and failure to accept Assignats, initially an offence subject to six years in prison, was made a capital crime. By 1799 the currency was completely worthless.

 

If even the threat of death could not prop up the Assignat, does anyone believe that the currency could have been saved if Robespierre had forcefully mouthed a “strong Assignat policy” as President Bush is now doing with the dollar? Rather than repeating the mistakes of history we should learn from them. Our own failed experiment with the Continental currency as well as the Great Depression should prove conclusively that it is Austrian, and not French, economics we should be following.

 

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editoria.../2008/0314.html

Here's the book in PDF at the Von Mises institute, its quite short, takes about an hour to read and is well worth the effort. It gives you an understanding of how society and governments treat people who keep their assets abroad or hold gold in a hyper inflationary environment also how business grinds to a halt rather than accepting worthless paper money. When I read first read it I was reminded of the situation in Zimbabwe and how the government seized farms after the owners stopped producing crops for depreciating currency.

http://www.mises.org/books/inflationinfrance.pdf

Good to hear from you both Kingfisher and Wheelybin and welcome to the forum.

So I can link to other forums and general bullion sites but not to here. You can see that the post was for general info as some people are asking questions and really need to spend time getting more background and this site is one worth mentioning along with the others.

This is a great thread and its much better now in its new home, with all the great links, charts, videos, rocket pics and upto the minuet news stories on the economy and how it can be reflected in the price of gold.

The great thing about this thread and its posters is that absolutely anyone can post here and ask simple questions about gold, silver, charts, currencies, banking and economics. You don't have to have any specialist knowledge about the markets to post or ask questions and I think because of this many people who would not even have though about investing in gold can do so.

Its also much better also now we don't have the thread taken up with gold trolls, putting up the same old discredited arguments while refusing to listen and understand the counter points made to them. As if somehow just because they not being able to understanding that gold has value means that gold has no value, whereas in reality it just meant that they did not understand why it has value.

Not all skeptical views about gold were unwelcome, Magpie raised some interesting ideas about value and occasionally RB would offer warning about imminent gold price collapse, mentioning his particle accelerator method of gold production, though I am sure that if it ever became possible to create gold out of nothing then the worlds central banks would be calling for a new gold standard.

Fake fears over Ethiopia's gold

By Elizabeth Blunt

BBC News, Addis Ababa

Thursday, 13 March 2008, 15:20 GMT

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7294665.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7294040.stm

Gold hits $1,000 for first time