ConvertedGoldBug

Although I'm heavily invested in precious metals, I've also got food and energy related investments as well. I always keep in the back of my mind that, worse case scenario, people need food and energy, but they don't need gold or silver. However, any other financial crisis or loss of confidence in fiat is also beneficial to PM's, so consider these as a hedge in more than one respect.

Ok, I suppose I probably know the answer to this without even asking, but if Silver is so important, and stocks are so low, why isn't it already more than $18-ish per oz? Platinum and Palladium, for example, are in the hundreds per oz... so why isn't Silver? If everyone is waiting (hoping) for it to explode in price... why is it likely to happen, if it hasn't already?

I was wondering what happens if there is a gold confiscation? For those people who hold their own physical gold (i.e. not using ETFs or an intermediary like BullionVault etc.), what good is holding gold if it becomes illegal to do so? Presumably you can't spend it? And would the authorities find out that you owned gold, by trawling through the records of suppliers such as CoinInvestDirect, etc.? So I'm thinking it becomes an inflation hedge, but one that you can't actually benefit from owning or spending. Therefore, is the point of owning gold purely to protect your wealth, and you'd have to wait potentially many years for any confiscation ban to be dropped, and ownership to become legal again, before you can then convert your (hopefully) inflation-proof hedge back into useable currency to spend? Just some random thoughts, as I've just received my first gold and silver coin delivery from CoinInvestDirect, and placed an order for some more, and am thinking what actual practical use owning gold has, apart from my above-mentioned ponderings. And would silver ever be subject to any confiscations? Or is it just gold?

I have a question. It keeps being mentioned that the banks/hedge funds can't "short" the physical bullion that you own (i.e. it's better to hold physical coins etc. than use ETFs). So what if all the gold in the world was owned physically by someone, does that mean that they couldn't still influence the prices? Is all the gold already owned? People own gold... central banks own gold... etc. I would have thought that these things can still be manipulated to affect the price and value of your gold? PS: Still waiting for my first delivery from CoinInvestDirect that I ordered on Sunday... phoned them Tuesday to enquire if my order was being processed, gave my number for them to ring back, but never heard anything... not had any order confirmation email or such like... should I have heard something by now?

3773 maples... that's a lot of coins to store! And even more to dispose of when the day comes to sell! Here's me still waiting for my first order of coins to arrive... 1 gold maple, and 30 silver philharmonics.... and I'm already thinking I'd rather have just gone for a second gold coin instead of 30 silver coins. Yes, I realise the potential of silver, but for a long-term holding of coins, is it a good idea to have THAT many? I'm going to follow the strategy now of buying physical gold coins, and use my ETF for silver... as long as it's backed by physical, and as long as TS(doesn't)HTF, if there's ever a gold confiscation or it's made illegal to own, then hopefully I'll still be ok in silver instead

Maybe the 1% rate was deliberately staggered... 0.25 on Sunday, and 0.75 today? 1% was expected anyway, just got it spread over a couple of days... maybe they thought nobody would notice

Hey, you guys, this isn't fair... I left this page open before going to bed last night.... and now I've got about 5 pages to trawl through this early in the morning.... don't you ever sleep??? And now for my Goldfinger impression.... "Damn, it's going up too fast, haven't had a chance to buy any more physical yet!"

Maybe trying to promote an alternative to buying physical coins? Could help push the price up by using the simple option of ETFs for those with stockbroker accounts, who might not consider actually buying physical gold... You know... everyone's saying "Buy Gold!!!", but not everyone might know how to do that.

DrBubb, What's your stance on this with regard to mining shares? Presumably they'd get hammered, but what about longer term? Would these likely recover really quickly if the price of gold skyrockets? Or could they stay in the doldrums for a long time?

Thanks for the info.... I hadn't seen anyone else reply either Well, just placed my first order with "CoinInvestDirect.com" for a 1oz Gold Maple, and some 1oz Silver Philharmonics Paid my invoice straight away (Sunday) via online bank transfer, so not sure how long that will take to get into their account... do you think I'm likely to receive my package by Thursday (before the Easter break)? Can't wait to see what some real gold and silver coins look like! Not sure how many silver coins I'll buy in total, maybe only about 50. I know they're likely to go up in value quicker than gold, but due to the volatility, I think I'd prefer a smaller quantity of gold coins ultimately, rather than a whole hoard of silver coins that I'd then find myself having to dispose of to trade for gold. Will probably stick with my silver ETF to make money to use to buy some more real gold coins.

Hmmm, here's a couple of posts in a new thread entitled "Gold Investing" on the MSE site: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=801109 and... Could this be early rumblings of Joe "haven't a clue" Public wanting to get in on some action???

Ok, another quick question about CoinInvestDirect.com It's Saturday today, if I place an order, when will it arrive? There's only 4 working days between now and the Easter weekend, so would it be before or after the weekend? And I got as far as the checkout page, where I input my delivery address, but was a bit scared clicking the button underneath to complete the order. What happens after that? Is that the last screen? Have I completed my order at that stage? I'd like to get it delivered to my work address... does it get delivered by a courier company? Where's the option to add postal insurance? Or don't I need that if its being delivered by a courier? Which courier company is used? What hours do they deliver between? Hopefully they don't turn up at a business address too early or too late in the day when no-one's there! And when they invoice me, how do I pay that? Do they supply an account number for me to do a bank transfer (via online banking)? Or do I phone them with my debit card details? Their T&C says I've only got 3 days to pay them after receiving the invoice... is the invoice in the package with the coins, or mailed separately? Or is it mailed first, and I have to pay first before they even dispatch my order???? So many questions... hopefully all the right answers forthcoming to put me at ease...

The thing with MoneySavingExpert.com is that it's more a website for "consumer" issues and rights etc. A lot of the people aren't very financially savvy on there, so they need some form of "protection" from advice that could cost them money... If they see the value of an investment go down, then they'll think they've got a bum deal and sell at a loss to "protect" themselves from any further losses. Most of them probably can't see the relationship between saving cash to get interest, and inflation making things cost more... and then realising what other things they can do to protect themselves from inflation. That website can't be seen to have people offering "advice", since that could breach legal regulations, so the only real way is to "discuss" the price of gold or silver, and "discuss" inflation, and "discuss" the value of cash losing its purchasing power... and for them to put 2+2 together and do their own research. But like I said at the beginning... most won't be able to see past how to get their extra 0.1% interest by moving their cash from Bank A to Bank B, etc.

I was thinking of something along those lines... that's why I wanted to go for a rough 50/50 split. Am now thinking I'd probably be better off in the long run not paying higher premiums on some of the gold coins (just to get some variety), since getting the cheaper ones would perhaps mean I could get 1 or 2 extra silver coins for the same total outlay. re: Ebay... how can you guarantee that they're genuine coins, and not fakes?

Am just about to make my first ever physical coin purchase (from CoinInvestDirect). Going to spend £1000, just to get my "collection" started So am thinking for my first purchase, I'd like a several coins... probably a mixture of gold and silver, and from different countries (yeah, I know that means some coins are going to carry more of a premium than others). Therefore, I'm not going to go for 1oz gold coins this time around, but rather some smaller weights. Probably going for a 50/50 split between gold/silver, e.g. - 1/2oz Gold Krugerrand (x1) - 1/2oz Gold Panda (x1) - 1/4oz Gold Maples (x2) - 1oz Silver Philharmonics (x20) Any comments? Am thinking it might be easier to sell smaller denominations of coins in the future after the price has skyrocketed (i.e. someone else wouldn't have to fork out an extortionate amount for a 1oz gold coin, and can instead spend half or quarter the amount of cash to buy it from me).... not that I'd be thinking of selling, otherwise I might as well just stick this £1000 in my ETF.

I'm also thinking Joe Public will start using leverage, and taking out loans etc. to invest in gold at this stage... rather like they have jumped on the Buy-to-Let bandwagon by taking out BTL mortgages... although probably on a smaller scale. And when the bubble bursts, that could leave more people with huge losses and debts, and maybe more bank credit write-downs etc.

I've been thinking about this "mania" scenario, and wondering how it would play out. I agree that people I know and work with aren't aware about all this... had one or two comments about awareness of the price going up, but that's so different to them actually parting with their cash to buy Gold as an investment (i.e. to make "money"). In fact, in my office, most people are skint from the general cost of day-to-day living, so can't see them getting in on the mania to buy physical gold when the price is higher, as it's already pretty expensive to buy just 1oz (maybe more than people's disposable income from just one month's wages). So unless they can get in on the craze via something cheaper (e.g. funds investing in gold miners, or ETF's where the price of one "share" is 1/10 of an ounce of gold), I think it's going to be the big players that push the price of physical gold up, and the general public getting in on it in other ways. I reckon it's the mining companies that people will jump on the bandwagon with, once newspapers start advertising new mutual fund launches, and how you can invest in your ISA in a fund, with past performance figures to back this up.... rather the same way that everyone wanted to buy Dot.com shares/funds. And while it will be the established miners who will be making real profits, I expect they'll be loads of new mining exploration start-ups created with the speculation of potential gold discoveries (just like the Dot.con start-ups that never made any real profits). That's when the mania will really hit the public awareness. Still can't really see that the man in the street is going to go out and spend £500, £700, £1000+ etc. on just a single gold coin... it may even be possible that they'd sell their "useless" gold jewellry to reinvest in something such as these mutual funds etc., where they think they can make some "real money" that they can spend in the shops!

Where's the good places to buy coins from? (I'm in the UK). Had a look at CoinInvestDirect, and they seem good... any others? Someone previously mentioned GoldMoney for silver.... but I had a look on their site, and it looked like they just held it on your behalf... couldn't find any mention of them being a coin supplier to get physical delivery from them (although it was midnight when I was looking, so could have been a bit tired ) And where do you get sovereigns from? CoinInvestDirect didn't have any listed...

Does anyone here buy coins smaller than 1oz in size, e.g. 1/10oz krugerrands? Or is the 1oz size the best to go for? Was just wondering, since if 1oz of gold skyrockets and fiat collapses, would it be of any benefit having smaller denominations of coin values, or would you expect to be given those as loose change when you spend your 1oz coin? Might be quite nice to have a coin collection with "more" coins in it (i.e. more quantity, even if they're the same value).

Interesting article on Kitco today... http://www.kitco.com/ind/Akerman/mar122008.html Basically wonderying why gold didn't do much after yesterday's $200 billion rescue plan by the Fed. "The plan will effectively shift the risks in the banking system onto the Fed’s own balance sheet, so that instead of holding mainly Treasury securities, the central bank will soon be nose-deep in loans and mortgage-backed securities of dubious value. For individual investors looking for a way to respond to the news, the correct course of action would seem to be: keep buying gold and silver. Of course, this has been more or less true since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, empowering the government to create money out of thin air. But given the inability of gold to achieve new highs yesterday, and because of its equally stolid reaction to last Friday’s alarming unemployment report, we would suggest that gold bugs ratchet up their cautiousness a notch or two in the weeks ahead. In practice, this will mean closely monitoring gold’s vital signs as it flirts with the $1,000 level. ... ... Recognizing that there is no way it can induce consumers to borrow-and-binge once again with the economy slipping into a real estate deflation, the Fed has seized on an extremely risky alternative. By assuming effective ownership of all the bad paper that has clogged the credit markets, the central bank has given the banks the statutory ability to create more loans. But if the demand for loans fails to materialize and now-burgeoning bank reserves go unused, then we are about to see a collapse in money velocity that would be deflationary in the extreme. No Hyperinflation That is what we expect, and it implies there will ultimately be no hyperinflation. However, as long as the threat of one seems real, gold and silver quotes are likely to remain firm. But the threat could vanish quickly if and when the speculative blowoff that has seized commodity markets ends, presumably taking the stock market with it. Even then, precious metals are bound to outperform other classes of investment assets and hold their purchasing power. But it nonetheless remains a possibility that this will come about because their price has fallen less steeply than that of other assets and investables."

Can anyone tell me about the rules for ownership of physical gold and silver (i.e. coins)... If I bought some through GoldMoney or CoinInvestDirect, for example, is there a paper trail that has to be provided to the Government, so they know I'd be owning some gold? Or is there a minimum limit on how much you can buy per year without these records being required (think I read something like 5k per year, but can't remember if that was buying or selling). Wouldn't fancy the idea of being forced to surrender any coins if there was a Government confiscation or something. And if there are rules, does it apply to both gold and silver, or is it just for gold?

They're EFT Securities' "Physical Precious Metals"... "Physical Gold"... "Physical Silver" e.g. "...backed by physical allocated metal held by the Custodian (HSBC Bank USA N.A.). All physical metals held with HSBC conform to the London Platinum Palladium Market’s (LPPM) and the London Bullion Market Association’s (LBMA) rules for Good Delivery." And recommended by financial publications (e.g. MoneyWeek)... who make a point of saying to only use the ones backed by physical. Other than trusting them, don't see what else I can do with my ISA and pension funds. And besides, another thing I've always wondered, re: your comment about "shorting a coin"... surely the price will go up or down for the physical coin the same as the ETF... so even if they short my coin, it's value can still go down?

Anyone got any comments on my investment portfolio? Sorry, I know this is a Gold thread, but seeing as we've had several pages talking about Water (and seeing as my portfolio is mostly precious metals related), I'd just like some second opinions when taking current the economic climate into consideration as well... and maybe give people something new to discuss again for a while 65% - Precious Metal ETFs (approx 40% gold, 30% silver, 20% platinum, 10% palladium) 15% - Gold / precious metal equities (ML Gold & General + Ruffer Baker Steel Gold funds) 10% - Agricultural commodities (corn, wheat etc.) 5% - Agricultural equities (via the Eclectica "Agriculture" fund) 5% - Junior Oils fund (I'm not really a dabbler in individual stocks, so wouldn't know what specific companies to buy shares in, therefore am sticking to funds in sectors I'm interested in) Basically, I'm wondering if there's some investments that it might be better holding off from investing, or switching, etc. For example, is it worth keeping the Junior Oils now, or waiting to see how the recession pans out (oil might fall), and then going back in later? Is "physical" precious metals better than mining companies at the moment? Just done a comparison of these mining funds with the DJIA index, and they're going up while the DOW is going down, but presumably they'd fall heavily in a severe crash? Or is a "crash" different to a "downturn"? i.e. if the DOW continued steadily downwards, could the mining funds still go steadily upwards? And the agricultural aspect of my portfolio? It's actually my second favourite sector after the precious metals, so I'd be quite inclined to up my percentage in this area in favour of something else... maybe lose the Platinum/Palladium aspect of the PM's, and split that between a bit more Gold and some more Agriculture commodites? How would Pt/Pd fair up in a recession, seeing as they're more industrial metals? Any comments welcome... and sorry, at the moment still haven't got round to buying any Physical Gold or Silver (although the ETFs claim they are backed by physical, for what it's worth). These investments represent my ISA and SIPP, so don't want to (or can't) cash them in to buy physical... that would be from new money only.

Bringing this thread back On Topic, can I ask why the Dow to Gold ratio is significant? Surely if the Dow goes down further than Gold goes down, then yes, the ratio narrows, but both have still fallen, so what's the big deal? Isn't the idea to make money by Gold going up in value?

OK, I need educating again... They suggest in this video that the new successor to the Dollar, the Amero, would be backed by silver. Why silver? Is it because it is not worth as much as gold? I thought there was less silver in existence than gold? And how would a silver-backed currency impact the value of gold?