aliveandkicking

I would say it was far more relevant to this thread than arrogant crowing about how well you have done with a company that has f&ck all to do with gold!

I still cant work out if people who think we are going back to gold standards are genuine or if they work for the gold miners and and other industry folk who benefit from raising the profile of gold

Why would any group of people capable of controlling the world revert back to a gold standard???

If people want sound money and they control the world they can just raise interest rates.

I personally am very interested in how fiat was accepted in place of a gold standard and how it is maintained in the internet age but obviously its just me.

A large number of posters here are intererested in economics and these kinds of issues

The gold standard involved paper claims and trust they would be honoured

Fiat involves paper claims and trust that the value of the claim will be available for us when we come to spend the claim

In the gold standard a person could hold physical gold

In the fiat system a person can hold physical gold

In the gold standard if people hoarded gold it created problems for the management of the money supply which could be resolved by reclaiming gold held by people in return for paper promises.

In the fiat system if people hoard notes it creates a management problem that can be resolved by devaluing over time the value of the claims that are held

Both systems used promises and agreements

Both involved a large amount of paper promises

Cheers FK there is a distinct lack of a sense of humour on this site I think it is too many paper bugs worried about their investments.

 

I tnink we go up to $1,500 from here however I would never bet the house on it - especially as I sold it three years ago!!

 

Onwards and upwards.

How about you stop this nonesense and begin believing:

1. people who are not paper bugs are concerned about their none cash and physical asset investments doing badly in deflation

2. Plenty of people here are invested with paper claims to gold via the various online retailers,

3. Most people here dont go around endlessly ramping their investments as if failure was an impossible to admit option

4. People like to discuss things one way or another from various points of view without the kind of junk that you dish out about them having vested interests that they dont have.

You and fit kid and co keep spewing out the same toxic garbage at other posters and then you disguise this by saying you have a sense of humour.

My post above has been reported and I have been warned again!!

 

Can nobody say anything they believe to be true on this website?

 

What thoughtcrime does this come under this time?

 

Crazy

I think if you could avoid describing other members as shills and saying the management are crazy while imagining you are being persecuted and implying that there is a group of you watching for this sort of thing (way too creepy) you might find your life is easier on the board

You self-contrarian you....

 

I'm fully locked in on GM now, even though like yourself I think there's a very good chance of lower prices. I will make sure to be a bottom of the barrel scrapper on BV.... with silver. Looking for a price around 15.50.

Can somebody explain what it means to be locked in?

From other comments i am getting the impression these companies are making it unprofitable to transfer back to cash?

Not at all. I have posted a lot of theoretical stuff on why gold will perform well.... looking for links....

 

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index....t=0&start=0

 

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index.php?showtopic=8203

 

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index....t=0&start=0

So you are the kind of person who is guided by theories while you talk about the end of rationalism??

There are so many factors, complexities... not too mention black birds.. that it remains irreducibly uncertain. Given the dominance of uncertainty, investors will not be sure how to value assets... and currencies for that matter... this is the prime reason capital will continue to flow into gold and out of other currencies.

 

As a skeptic myself, I am quite comfortable with uncertainty. Bye bye rationalism.

RH you are just guessing using all of your logically constucted ideas.

Gold if overvalued unless you construct some ideas that say it is special

Houses are special. They are one of the most important things in our lives.

Income is special

There are a number of things we can reason are special.

Nothing to do with being poetic - just more practical. Any system that has evolved through many hundreds of years will be better than one thought up by a committee. I will admit that for science, the metric system has advantages but for everyday usage, you cannot beat that which has evolved.

 

As an example of this, think of a cart wheel - from 1900 - this represents the collective wisdom and experience of hundreds of generations of wheel builders - compare this wheel with a wheel that would be designed by a committee with no prior knowledge of wheel building but good technical design abilities. The 1900 wheel would be infinitely superior - because of thousands of years of trial and error.

This seems to be a common logical trap. Ie C is derived from knowledge of A and B. Whereas C could be a totally new way of doing things that has little to do with A or B

Design can be better if all previous ideas are released when exploring the best solution but this is not the habit of the logical mind. The logical mind attaches great importance to what it already knows and understands. Knowledge is then associated with intelligence and wisdom and superiority. The creative mind simply leaps into the unknown with ignorance and chances upon a new and unconsidered new idea. The wisdom here is that ignorance can be valueable because the mind is open

Similarly evolution is not A to B to C in a linear fashion always. Instead by chance one creature is simply superior

The metric system is not rational - it was dreamed up by French intellectuals who had no grounding in the real world. The imperial system gradually evolved over time to best suit the purposes of ordinary people. The metric system is an IMPOSED SYSTEM in much the same way as fiat is imposed money.

I thought Finland was metric. But my house is full of UK inch thread sizes on the heating pipes. When i go to any merchant i can buy either Inch UK or metric parts. As often as not it is inch sizes on the taps and so forth.

Of course the advantage of imposing metric is consumers have to progressively replace pipes for which it becomes uneconomical to get parts. But it seems the war is not yet over!

On the other hand if you want to get a three quarter inch tap washer in finland most plumbers look at you as if you are from mars and start passing the parts around while people stare in amazement at something so primitive and say you must fit a new tap like they do. Fortunately the local Bauhaus has a good selection of inch washers

Sinclair could be cutting it a bit fine with his timing. The next spike to 1650 could be 2 years away.

 

 

The lower trend on that graph does not look very convincing at being able to hold 1000.

Edit: But i can see the lehmans saga might account for the fall below this trend earlier

Relevance to the gold thread?????????

Gold can be bought at a cheaper price during a period of deflation because ordinary money becomes more desirable and often pays some interest also

Gold is often not personally held and there is some cost of storing it somewhere else

Gold tends to do well when inflation concerns are more urgently getting peoples attention than depressionary deflationary concerns are.

In the last few months the possibility of a new boom in commodity prices appeared fairly likely but now we have China cooling things down there and not much activity elsewhere to make it appear we are going to be entering into inflation economic conditions in the near future. It appears the resurgence in economic conditions in the west will fade once this current blip is over as firms replace run down stocks to near earlier levels following the scares of last year

This thread was asking the question will gold go up or down?

Gold will likely go down in a deflationary period.

For gold to rise in price more money has to be flowing into gold or buying Gold than money leaves gold or sells Gold

In deflation or depression people have to sell investments to pay bills. Gold is still relatively highly valued and makes a good sale if you need the money.

The price of gold is related to economic conditions and expectations of future economic conditions

Almost nobody is now predicting a return to boom times. Almost everyone is seeing bad times ahead.

Even oil is falling in price as people realise there just will not be the demand and there is too much oil.

The deflationists seem to have got back into the driving seat at the moment.

gf, if people have different tactics, strategies to you, that does not necessarily make them "gamblers in the casino".

 

More likely it just means they have different convictions.

Goldfinger went to the bookie and placed a bet that the bookie would collapse. He wanted 100% guaranteed odds but he got what was given.

Meanwhile it appears 100% guaranteed certain that the price of gold will eventually keep on rising ever higher.

As will everything else.

I think that most people are not made for making money by trading, which includes shorter term buying and selling of gold-related investments. To say it with JS, the world has turned into one large casino. I am not comfortable with the many people on here who just want to be gamblers in that casino. I would instead encourage them to move their money into a safe investment until the casino has burned down to the ground - which should happen in the not too distant future (it's on fire already).

Money makes the world go around. I think the difference today is that the market is viewable in more or less real time whereas before it was only viewed by a few in major trading centres and even they could not see the other trading centres in real time.

So if you see an out of control casino it does not mean anything will majorly change. What is now changing though is that banks are generally more cautious about lending.

Okay.

I simply think that GF is overdoing it, when describing the motives and actions ofd those who might disagree with him. I am certain, he has no desire to harm investors- quite the reverse, I know his motive is to protect investors reading his posts. But I think it is a surprising failure of imagination on his part, not to see that those who are sometimes bearish on gold, might also share a desire to help others.

 

I rarely regard those that I disagree with as have a desire or willingnmess to harm others (excepting, of course: Greenspan, Brown, Krugman, and Barney Frank), who are completely happy to harm others, if it helps them to gain or maintain power. So, if I have characterised those four properly, then I might also describe them as evil. I dont see JS as evil, just as an over-enthusiastic cheerleader, for a view that he holds strongly. However, there is a risk that JS will harm others, if he gets people to follow him blindly.

DrBubb

There seems to be a pretty determined movement on this board to ridicule anyway who does not support the chosen future. I suppose if the board owner stands up he has a better chance than most. But you can see how determined the supporters can be to keep reminding you of how bad you are to require standards to be maintained here.

If the "free market" were to reign you would have effectively denationalized currencies which would essentially involve bartering for goods with gold or silver or whatever. A near Cormack McCarthy view of the future.

 

On the other hand, we have the continual reign of governments with the institution of an international currency, that is, a gold exchange standard.

 

Which do you think more likely? I'd suggest the first is more attractive to those who view the world along the lines of freedom versus power. Those that view the world along the lines of order versus chaos find the second more attractive. However corrupt we think government is, it is their job to maintain law order... and accordingly it will involve a new international currency/ system.

in a free market people dont want to be walking around with kilos of metal as money. So instead they generally prefer claims.

How can you possibly believe that people would prefer to barter with metal??

Or am i misunderstanding you?

All in good time. At the moment it's the rally (?) in the dollar all eyes are on perhaps. Soveriegn debts...later episode?

Given the signs of withdrawal of monetary stimulus in some locations and rising rates, gold was a bit over extended but so far the pull back in Gold is pretty minor.

On the other hand Gold responds to inflation fear nicely but say Dubai debt default which is deflationary sends it down pretty quickly also.

Yesterday Gold went from 1135.?? to 1130.?? in a fraction of a second. i have never seen it go up or down like that before. I dont think it was Greece either.

Meanwhile whatever the cause there remains an awful lot of weakness in inflationary pressures in real economies with more or less zero chance that is going to change for months if not years to come.

I tell you what, how about you troll your own 'PAPER' thread??

 

Then you can just argue with yourself all day!

 

I suppose the next thing your going to tell us is copenhagen is our last chance to save the world??

How about you change your name to ingoldwetrust and stop arguing with this person you have created and leave me out of it please

Would that be possible?

A&K have you ever agreed with anyone that goes against your VI bullshit?

 

You are nothing but a complete virtual knob jockey IMO (and money others I expect).

 

The amount of time you spend on 'Gold thread' when your so negative about it...WTF!??

 

You are forcing others away from this site (probably intentionally).

So it now official that unless you are ramping gold that you are not allowed to post here?

I wonder how many posters have been driven away by that kind of mind numbing stupidity

Good point. I like to draw a distinction between base money and then the [real] money supply..... which has to be something that is actually supplied to the real economy.

 

OK people, can you please consider this point?

This is still not so clear

For example in the UK we are told base money in 50's has increased by a total of 200 million pounds. But we are also told that base money as electronic reserves has increased by 200 billion pounds.

We are told that people are hoarding 50's and fewer of them are moving around or something like this

And we also know i think that the 200 billion is not moving around much either.

I would stongly urge you to reconsider.

 

the reason A&K resorts to ad hominems, strawmen, false dichotomies, confrontation, personal insults etc is because he cannot backup what he is posting with facts, evidence, logic etc.

 

i.e. what he posts is wrong.

 

I understand your frustration that responding to his posts is less about economics and more about trying not to get caught up in his diversionary tactics, but that is useful skillset for you to learn in itself, and one which will no doubt be useful when you meet such people face to face from time to time.

 

you can learn a lot from A&K

I am sure this is some kind of strawman argument? Or is it adhomiem?

Either way you attack me and keep attacking me with this kind of comment while providing zero evidence to support your attack.

When and if you meet me. You will realise i am just a person who does not agree with you.

You may think i am wrong

I think you are wrong sometimes

Sometimes i think you work for psy ops to ensure nothing about banking ever sees the light of day in any way that can be understood by any ordinary person.

It could be we just happen to share an interest in banking for one reason or another as we both seem to have spent some time attempting to learn more about it.

Seems to me that you like your opinion to be facts and mine to be wrong. And this silly way of argument permeates most of our conversation.

try "limitless" for size.

You have a recent habit of popping up and restoring clarity

Now about that state of terror you are experiencing that requires you to bend over when there is no state? So there is no state and you bend anyway? As i said before why do you bend so easily and enthusiasticly if nothing exists to require you to bend?

The rest of us bend because of reality.

Will you join us now or resist us?

I can see why an investor sees, or imagines, an abundance of money. But ask yourself what the in-debted consumer sees. I'd say from their perspective, they see scarcity and will behave accordingly. I guess where we differ is that I put more emphasis on consumer behaviour in its efficacy to shape the economy than that of monetary theory and central banks.

 

If there is excess supply, and accordingly less demand... then prices will fall... and cash will come to be considered more valuable by the general population [thinking makes it so]. This is how cash stops becoming worth...less, contra to [legally restrained] CB efforts.

RH

As a moderator with an interest in deflation it would be helpful i think if you could ask people to consider that the money supply is not some abstract set of numbers but is rather our money supply.

When a bank has a huge pile of borrowed money from a government that is not spent that sits in an account as a number i dont think we can say this is truelly part of our money supply.

There seems therefore a clear difference.

there is our spending money and there is the governments money that they want us to spend that belongs to them or is controlled by them.

Endlessly this board wants to say the governments money is inflation as if this difference is absolutely irrelevant.

We need moderators or somebody to deal with this.

Infortunately as i said earlier moderator Goldfinger has declared it is irrational to say that deflation is possible

An almost impossible position on a board if people do want to discuss rather than ramp their chosen positions

And apparently an active group on this board seems to think that leadership on the board is something to be mocked and attacked

Is there a way forwards??

You can't have a nice debate on this forum anymore.

 

I think I'll leave.

 

Dr Bubb - please can you delete my i.d.

 

Thankyou.

Dont be so child like

What did you mean by infinite?

It is a fair and reasonable question

Are you beyond being questioned?

I have changed it to help you.

It seems you like playing games.

I think the subject of deflation is worth discussing even if you do not

If you have an opinion let us clearly hear what it is, using language that makes sense to people who share a common understanding of words that are used in dictionaries or can be agreed upon by readers and listeners.

Infinite money suppply must mean that money is valueless.

Infinite does not mean very big

Do you mean very big?

Or do you mean potentially infinite?