Toxteth Jack Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Original title: Is Warren Buffet rich enough to build a new world? If not, will you chip in? ================================== I've read the posts, I can see the writing on the wall, I do get it, we need to re-define who we are as a society and who we are as a collection of societies that together become a global society. Car-less future etc. It still comes out as a problem belonging to someone else, not you or I. Once the problem has been solved then those with assets will transfer their wealth there and start living in Utopia. Until then the only problem is how to preserve (and increase) wealth. Keeping with the idea that an inherited dollar is a rotting fish (Andrew Carnagie) just what is the point of anyone dying while still holding assets? It can be argued that you want your descendants to benefit from your efforts but wouldn't your wealth be better deployed giving your offspring real assets? As in a full on car-less society? Hey Junior, I'm leaving you $x trillion, sorry abou the imminent demise of Planet Earth but that's business... Find a dot on the map that has the potential to become your vision of Utopia, relocate and start spending your wealth in ways that make that Utopia more likely to happen. Get the people on your side and sharing the same vision. Spend on education to get the quality of employees you want there to be in your Utopia. Plan ahead for centuries, get people involved and teach them to run with it. Who knows, might be fun. When it really does hit the fan you are going to be a much needed member of that society. You get to decide where the wages get spent and it is not for short term gains, it is for long term future. In true DNA fashion, those who had the right (lucky?) idea prosper and the losers go to the wall, hey that's evolution. So, the big question, who will go for it? All your wealth spent by the time you die and the only benefit that you give your children is the increase in value of the area/conditions in which you raised them. Any takers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbubb Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Utopian thinking? Find a dot on the map that has the potential to become your vision of Utopia, relocate and start spending your wealth in ways that make that Utopia more likely to happen. Get the people on your side and sharing the same vision. Spend on education to get the quality of employees you want there to be in your Utopia. Plan ahead for centuries, get people involved and teach them to run with it. Who knows, might be fun. Many people have tried to build Utopias. How many have succeeded? Problems: + One man's Utopia is another man's Hades + The clear vision that starts a Utopia runs into trouble when reality interfers + It is expensive, building a Utopia It is easier for most to look for a place that approaches Utopia What are the characteristics that you find Utopian? == == == Utopia is a term for an ideal society. It has been used to describe both intentional communities that attempted to create an ideal society, and fictional societies portrayed in literature. The term is sometimes used pejoratively, in reference to an unrealistic ideal that is impossible to achieve, and has spawned other concepts, most prominently dystopia. The term was taken from a fictional island in the Atlantic Ocean, written by Sir Thomas More as the fictional character Raphael Hythloday (translated from the Greek as "knowing in trifles") as possessing a seemingly perfect socio-politico-legal system. Types of Utopias: Economic utopia Political and historical utopia Religious utopia Scientific and technological utopia /see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxteth Jack Posted June 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Utopia was the wrong choice of word as at the time of posting I ignored the 'cloud cuckoo land' connotation that the word often has with the listener/reader. Maybe 'helping to build a resilient community' is better. Problems: + One man's Utopia is another man's Hades That can be a problem in times of plenty but if we do have a meltdown then Hades is any place where a person can't get food and shelter (plus a little extra) in return for an honest days work. Joseph Williamson, also known as 'The Mole of Edge Hill' employed men to build tunnels rather than give them handouts. There were many like him in the past, Buffet talks of the folly of having 10,000 people employed to paint his portrait every day but 10,000 working lifetimes is a huge amount of skill and effort. Is there any town in America that could not shelter itself from the meltdown and build a lasting future with such a resource? If Buffet picks a town to do it in, would you chip in for a few dozen workers and relocate? + The clear vision that starts a Utopia runs into trouble when reality interfers So best to be realistic, social planning, community involvement and an education system that teaches people to value those of benefit to the community over those with a flash car in the driveway. School children understanding the problems of fiat currency would be a start. In practice, it will be difficult to get a large number of people working towards the same end while they are still in denial re. peak oil etc. so maybe it can't happen until the meltdown but will there be enough time then? + It is expensive, building a Utopia It isn't what it costs, the true question is what is it worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbubb Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Doug Casey is doing this already, I understand. His sustainable utopia is in a valley in Argentina, with big underground aquafers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbubb Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 ...I suppose you could say, I'm thinking about Green Utopias too... - from the Choosing a Wealth Manager thread: Maybe you wouldn't mind clarifying a little - why are you considering them? That's why as in why not continue to do it all yourself - and why as in why these two. I want to have a comparative yardstick, and some diversification of risk and investment ideas. If Puplava and/or Schiff did well enough, I would feed them more and more money. Like, 99, I have been impressed with their ideas. Will I ever get round to approaching them? Not sure when Long term, I want to pursue the Carfree Investing idea that I have been developing. I want to show people that they can live better, while using alot less oil energy. But that means a fairly radical overhaul of current living arrangements, particularly in the US. Investing time and effort in designing new living arrangements, will mean less time would be available for me to invest in the way that I have been doing now. == == == Maybe this thread is a good place to develop the concept of a Green Utopia. What goes into it? + A more sustainable living arrangement, + Access to food and water, that doesnt need to travel a long distance + Personal safety + Transport out, when you need it- so maybe rail and airport links ...what else? BTW, I think I will change the title of the thread: from: Is Warren Buffet rich enough to build a new world? If not, will you chip in? to: Green Utopia: Is Warren Buffet rich enough to build one? If he built it, would you come? Would you help to pay? TJ, if you don't like the new title, I will change it back. BTW, I often do this- change titles- with my own threads. So its a sort of bad habit I have. =============== JUST BUILD IT, and they will come? Is just building it enough, or does a Green Utopia need to be planned and developed extensively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pipples Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 ...I suppose you could say, I'm thinking about Green Utopias too... Long term, I want to pursue the Carfree Investing idea that I have been developing. I want to show people that they can live better, while using alot less oil energy. But that means a fairly radical overhaul of current living arrangements, particularly in the US. Investing time and effort in designing new living arrangements, will mean less time would be available for me to invest in the way that I have been doing now. == == == Maybe this thread is a good place to develop the concept of a Green Utopia. What goes into it? + A more sustainable living arrangement, + Access to food and water, that doesnt need to travel a long distance + Personal safety + Transport out, when you need it- so maybe rail and airport links ...what else? Same sort of situation for me. After watching about a 1/7 of my investments disappear this winter (I had been leaving things to a reputable F.A. up to then) I figured I'd best take things into hand myself. After a few months of trying to get my head around the current situation and possible options I've invested in the areas of p.m's, ag & water, energy, e.m's, infrastructure, euro - etc. Reasonably happy with the theory but it's not much fun trying to put it into practise as a newbie! Anyway, I'm involved in eco community projects and am looking to spend far more time working on one of these soon. I don't want to have to worry about finance stuff anything like as much as I have been! I'm not really looking to make money - just don't want to lose anymore before I've had chance to put some of it into stuff I think is sustainable and supportive for the/my/our future. So, I'm very much interested in finding someone else to help manage my finances too. Re. 'Green Utopia', it looks like you're aware of 'new urbanism' and I've mentioned 'permaculture' - cohousing , ecovillages and possibly deep ecology may be of interest. Check links at bottom of these pages for lots more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microbe Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 In praise of market towns.... I think the model for the utopia you seek already exists, even if it has been under attack by dormitorification during the Age Of The Car. There are still vibrant English market towns which are centres for sustainable agricultural/agribusiness/mixed regions. These are areas which have been complaining of relative poverty in recent years, a side effect of NuLabor disinterest in primary industry and love affair with the City. They have cohesive communities, which when the shit hits the fan will still have food, because they either already produce it or they have space to grow it in allotment gardens, market gardens and back gardens. They will not have race riots (which I am certain are going to flare up in the cities), because they have tiny non white communities, colour has never been an issue, and it won't be in the future (I must admit I hate mentioning race, it is at most a side issue, but people are going to die and I would rather it happened to someone other than me and my children). They have low crime rates. Even the county towns and cities are well set in some cases. My picks would be towns around 30,000 in size in Norfolk, Suffolk, Lincolnshire or Herefordshire. Flat, good farmland rather than the wildernesses of Northumberland or Cumbria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbubb Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 In praise of market towns.... I think the model for the utopia you seek already exists, even if it has been under attack by dormitorification during the Age Of The Car. There are still vibrant English market towns which are centres for sustainable agricultural/agribusiness/mixed regions. These are areas which have been complaining of relative poverty in recent years, a side effect of NuLabor disinterest in primary industry and love affair with the City. Hmm. Maybe we need a UK Market Towns thread? Will you start it? What are the best ones, are they looking to enhance their "sustainable" image? Off the top of my head, I'd be looking for: + Proximity to a strong agricultural industry + A navigatable river or canal going through town + A rail connection + Some local industry, preferably agriculturally based + Inexpensive property values Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microbe Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Hmm. Maybe we need a UK Market Towns thread? Will you start it? What are the best ones, are they looking to enhance their "sustainable" image? Off the top of my head, I'd be looking for: + Proximity to a strong agricultural industry + A navigatable river or canal going through town + A rail connection + Some local industry, preferably agriculturally based + Inexpensive property values Ok - I am up for that. I have been doing a little research for my own purposes anyway. I will give it some thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbubb Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Ok - I am up for that. I have been doing a little research for my own purposes anyway. I will give it some thought... Plaase do start one. It would be good if you could Name names- and say what towns you like. Let's come up with a checklist for factors that matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Pipples Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 In praise of market towns.... I think the model for the utopia you seek already exists, even if it has been under attack by dormitorification during the Age Of The Car. There are still vibrant English market towns which are centres for sustainable agricultural/agribusiness/mixed regions. These are areas which have been complaining of relative poverty in recent years, a side effect of NuLabor disinterest in primary industry and love affair with the City. They have cohesive communities, which when the shit hits the fan will still have food, because they either already produce it or they have space to grow it in allotment gardens, market gardens and back gardens. They will not have race riots (which I am certain are going to flare up in the cities), because they have tiny non white communities, colour has never been an issue, and it won't be in the future (I must admit I hate mentioning race, it is at most a side issue, but people are going to die and I would rather it happened to someone other than me and my children). They have low crime rates. Even the county towns and cities are well set in some cases. My picks would be towns around 30,000 in size in Norfolk, Suffolk, Lincolnshire or Herefordshire. Flat, good farmland rather than the wildernesses of Northumberland or Cumbria. I agree with you in principle on a lot of this - I see the rebuilding and reinstigation of rural villages and market town networks as key to sustainability in a limited oil agriculture system. However, farming and farmers (and market towns and villages) are not what they used to be - and not always that cohesive nowadays. The trend for monocrop production methods means that often in rural areas the majority of food produced is limited to a few crops - not a multicrop balance like that required to provide a reasonable diet. Not all farmers are now even that familiar with the methods used for a wide range of crop products. They specialised - cause that's where the money was, made the soil weak and some (not all - still some oldies about) have lost touch with generations of experience and knowledge. Land is essential but you need more then just land. The materials and methods used for present production and supply are reliant on oil based fuel and fertilizer. Oil = food. Problem for oil = problem for food. Also, seed stocks for hardy, traditional crops that work well in less 'made perfect by oil' growing environments are now not used, rare and in short supply. I've talked specifically about farmers but dito all this for the vast majority who now live in the countryside. What's also required within these rural communities is the knowledge of how to work agriculture, horticulture & forestry (and the rest) in a sustainable and less oil dependant way. They'd also need the right resources to support this and some of these might not be available or easily improvised. Some areas of europe, eg. parts of Poland, still do things 'old skool' eg. horses, multicrop etc, etc. (They may have a hard life but won't be so stuffed as most of us if the manure hits the fan.) Some rural areas of the UK who are isolated enough to still need to do things more tradionally (locally) or are more receptive and practising of 'alternative' agriculture will be in a better position then others. Some smallholders, some organic farmers, permaculture people, etc. may have more of what it'll take but not many of these about. So, my point is that you've got a good point - but it's not necessarily a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbubb Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Some areas of europe, eg. parts of Poland, still do things 'old skool' eg. horses, multicrop etc, etc. (They may have a hard life but won't be so stuffed as most of us if the manure hits the fan.) Some rural areas of the UK who are isolated enough to still need to do things more tradionally (locally) or are more receptive and practising of 'alternative' agriculture will be in a better position then others. Some smallholders, some organic farmers, permaculture people, etc. may have more of what it'll take but not many of these about. Interesting point. Might Poland (or even Bulgaria) be a cheaper and better place for a Green Utopia than the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.