ziknik

I confess to some ignorance of the properties of Silver regarding its metal working properties and i began to get enthusiastic for it in my reading.

 

But from the silver association that Icarus quoted i found:

 

http://www.silverusersassociation.org/silver/facts.shtml

 

More than 2/3 of the silver produced worldwide is a by product of lead, copper and zinc mining.

 

So i am not sure about the limitations to mining more silver that people are claiming here. Maybe one third of silver comes from unique deposits that are no longer viable in a few years but 2/3 just arrives anyway from the demand for the other 3 metals. Given the massive demand for these other metals you can imagine that there is relatively a massive amount of silver coming on line also due to that other metal production.

Silver demand will grow with the demand for other metals. The price of silver was around 30% higher (in USD) before the crunch.

Here’s couple of good posts from Icarus that are worth re-reading. It’s a shame he doesn’t post more often. Icarus is like the MSE cgnao from 2004 (I mean that as a compliment if you’re reading)

from http://news.silverseek.com/SilverSeek/1210917480.php

 

'THE FACTS

 

 

 

The following is a list of facts and reasons to switch all your Gold investments into Physical Silver:

 

 

 

1) The Gold Banking Cabal is heavily involved in the suppression of the price of Silver and would be mortally wounded when Silver breaks the bonds of manipulation. Due to the tiny size of the market and the lack of physical Silver available to the manipulators, the Silver battle is much easier to win than Gold.

 

 

 

2) Central banks have NO physical Silver to assist in the manipulation of the Silver market but they still have a lot of physical Gold (although much less than they claim).

 

 

 

3) The majority of Silver mined every year is consumed as an industrial metal in very small amounts and will never return to the market whereas the amount of above ground Gold grows year after year.

 

 

 

4) Silver has developed, due to its low price and superior physical properties, into a vital and necessary industrial commodity that makes it mandatory for modern life. If we woke up tomorrow and gold vanished from the face of the earth, life would continue pretty much as it was the day before. Without silver, modern life would change.

 

 

 

5) Due to the relative very low price of silver and very high price of gold, the man in the street, around the world, is in a position to buy silver in much greater quantities than gold.

 

 

 

6) In various forms there is an estimated 5B oz of above ground Gold and 5B oz of above ground Silver but Gold trades at $880/oz and Silver trades for only $17/oz. Both metal prices are obviously manipulated but Silver appears to be manipulated more. As for Silver bullion that is “in play” for the manipulators, I estimate that less than 300M oz remain (COMEX Inventories + SLV Inventories) with a current market value less than $5B.

 

 

 

7) Silver has been in a supply deficit for over 50 years! Governments held approximately 10B oz of silver in 1950 and have been supplying that physical stock steadily into the market. Today there is no more of that surplus silver left to sell.

 

 

 

8) At current Silver consumption rates there are only 18 years of known Silver reserves remaining in the world. AFTER THAT SILVER WILL BE GONE FOREVER! Think about it.

 

 

 

9) Demand for Silver is “inelastic” in its industrial applications because it is used in such small quantities per application. An increase in price does not translate into a decrease in consumption.

 

 

 

10) The COMEX Silver short position is the largest concentrated short position of any commodity, on any exchange in the history of financial markets.

 

 

 

11) Throughout human monetary history the Silver to Gold ratio hovered in the 10-1 range until the invention of futures and options trading in metals. Since that time the ratio has risen to where it now stands at over 50-1.

 

 

 

12) The US Dollar as defined in the Coinage Act of 1792 is Silver, not Gold, and contains “three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver.”

 

 

 

13) Silver is massively under reported in the media vs. Gold. Even Jim Rogers, the commodity guru, purposefully ignores Silver entirely in his best selling book “Hot Commodities” even though Silver exceeds all other commodities using his metrics on what makes a strong commodity.

 

 

 

14) Very few investors have physical Silver in their possession. Reasoning: because they claim it is “too hard to store”. Does that mean when Silver trades at over $1,000 oz people will be more willing to buy and store physical Silver? It is difficult to make up a more bullish reason to take delivery and store physical Silver TODAY…when the Cabal price rigging scam finally fails you can always buy your own Fort Knox to store all that pesky Silver you bought!

 

 

 

15) Gold’s strong fundamentals are only exceeded by Silver’s so when the gold manipulation stops and the Gold price takes off investors will be looking for the next under-priced investment with similar characteristics.

 

 

 

16) 470M oz of Silver owned by the US Treasury and used in the Manhattan Project for the construction of the atom bomb have all been melted down and sold into the physical market to support the “Strong Dollar Policy” http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/silvermystery.html

 

 

 

17) Silver mineral deposits, as opposed to Gold, are usually very shallow in the earth’s crust due to the nature of the geology so most of the large deposits of Silver have probably already been found and/or already mined limiting future discoveries.

 

 

 

18) There is a significant problem with counterfeit Gold bullion because of its high price. Silver bullion has not, to date, had as much of a counterfeiting issue because its price did not justify the effort. (although there is a problem with counterfeit Silver jewelry which may significantly suppress Silver scrap recovery in the future…oddly bullish by-product of counterfeiting Silver!)

 

 

 

19) The total dollar value of the Silver market is a fraction of the total dollar value of the Gold market.

 

 

 

20) Most flat screen televisions use Silver in their internal electronics/screens and the US transfer from analog to digital signals in February 17, 2009 should temporarily increase the demand for new TV’s when the switch is made. http://www.dtv.gov/consumercorner.html#faq3

 

 

 

21) Retail physical shortages of Silver are already beginning to appear around the world.

 

 

 

22) Hedge funds are bleeding from the credit crunch and they are looking for ways to save themselves. A single hedge fund can scoop up the remaining physical Silver and blow the price sky high.

 

 

 

23) In the US, Gold confiscation laws are still on the books but there are currently no silver confiscation laws.

 

 

 

24) In March 2008 the Gold price breached $1,000 or 120% of its historical high. Silver, on the other hand, only approached $21 or 40% of it’s historical high suggesting that Silver has a long way still to go.

 

 

 

25) Un-backed paper Silver programs such as silver certificates and unallocated pooled accounts are the “industry standard” these days and will be scrambling for metal when redemptions are called in by the investors.'

...

Some facts about silver -

 

 

'# Silver has superior bactericidal qualities. Small concentrations of silver or silver salts kill bacteria by chemically affecting the cell membranes, causing them to break down. Bacteria do not develop resistance to silver, as they do to many antibiotics.

 

# Silver is the best conductor of heat of all elements. Its uses in solar panels and automobile rear window defoggers take advantage of this quality.

 

# Silver is the best conductor of electricity of all elements. In fact, silver defines conductivity - all other metals are compared against it. On a scale of 0 to 100, silver ranks 100, with copper at 97 and gold at 76. Silver is commonly used in electrical circuits and contacts. Silver is also utilized in batteries where dependability is mandatory and weight restrictions apply, such as those for portable surgical tools, hearing aids, pacemakers and space travel.

 

# Silver has the highest degree of optical reflectivity of all elements. A silver mirror can reflect about 95% of the visible light spectrum. (most mirrors are silver). Besides vanity uses, mirrors are important components in telescopes, microscopes and solar panels.

 

# Silver is more ductile than any element except gold. One ounce of silver can be drawn into 8,000 feet of thin wire.

 

# Silver is more malleability than any element except gold. One grain of silver can be made into a sheet one hundred and fifty times thinner than a piece of paper.'

 

From http://www.silverusersassociation.org/silver/facts.shtml

Due to silver being the first element to face extinction, IMO we will see a startling price discovery in the not too distant future.

It’s the third one. Terbium and hafnium are first and second

terbium and hafnium - not the easiest metals to purchase.

 

http://terresacree.org/argentanglais.htm - follow the link - each element is explained.

Also see thread on the subject

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index....ic=6744&hl=

...

My goal is to have as small a mortgage as possible but in no rush to buy. Selling at start 2008 and holding off the purchase of a new place is still probably the biggest step towards this but would love to get your ideas on what could be done with pounds sterling cash in the meantime.

...

I would keep some Sterling for emergencies. And average the rest in to gold (30%) and silver (70%)

EDIT: But I might be buying with a big mortgage and waiting for the silver price to rocket

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Would be interested to know how many on here now keep score in terms of how much gold or silver they have.

 

How many here "book profits" in to physical gold or silver?

...

I have three ‘pots’ of gold.

1) BullionVault gold will be used to pay off debt so this is scored in GBP

2) GoldMoney gold will be used to buy a house so this is scored in ‘% of average house price’

3) I score in-hand gold as ‘grams of gold’. I have several possible exit strategies for this gold and I am not sure which one I will take.

Once again we would like to draw your attention to an upcoming special offer!

 

As of 9am, Friday, June 12th 2009, we will be adding a new 1oz gold coin to our range and offer it at a fixed price as long as the reserved stock for this offer lasts! Visit our website www.CoinInvestDirect.com tomorrow to find out more!

There’s an offer at CID again. Don’t think it will be at spot price this time

Thanks for the input guys.

 

I take GF's point about the inherent risk but if you use your silver trading as a means of adding to an untraded core holding of gold, it seems unlikely that you'll get caught with your pants down, even in such a turbulent market.

 

A ratio of 50:1 seems to be the collective watershed. I think ziknik may well be proved right about a degree of resistance at this level.

 

I suppose an overshoot down to 35:1 would just be greedy

Depends on your timeframe

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index....st&p=110434

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index....st&p=110448

...

What are your guideline ratios for swapping back and forth between metals?

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I’m going to swap silver for gold at Goldmoney.

10% at 50:1

12% at 45:1

14% at 40:1

And so on.

The percentage will have to grow a bit each time or I will be left with 30% of my original silver holding at 1:1

I might skip 50:1. lots of people swapping at this ratio will create resistance.

So when the currency gets trashed:-

 

They say you have made a massive capital gain -

 

You say all you have done is maintain the value of your savings.

 

They are the system servers & it doesn't matter how corrupt the master as long as the pension is guaranteed.

Yes, that’s right as far as I know. But it only applies if you sell (or trade) the gold/silver.

In-hand physical has an advantage in this respect because it is impossible for the authorities to prove when the items were sold or traded.

Someone on here (I Think Pixel8r) was told by their accountant that currency depreciation against USD can be offset against capital gains tax for assets priced in USD. I’m not sure if this is true. In any case, USD is going to depreciate too so it probably won’t help much

I have just been speaking with my accountant about this issue.

 

He has advised me that it could be argued, that the gain was not in the actual asset going up, but the currency going down, so CGT could be avoided. You would need to record the dollar price (as that is the currency gold is traded in) at the time of purchase and sale.

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index....amp;#entry87402

EDITED

http://uk.reuters.com/article/rbssFinancia...dRealEstateNews

ETF Securities silver, palladium holdings hit record

 

LONDON, June 4 (Reuters) - ETF Securities said on Thursday the amount of metal it holds to back its silver exchange-traded commodity rose to a record 20.064 million ounces on June 3, while its palladium holdings also hit an all-time high.

 

ETFS Physical Silver (PHAG.L) has added 2.3 million ounces or 12.7 percent to its holdings in the last month, according to data released by the company.

 

Holdings of its ETFS Physical Palladium product meanwhile rose 13,677 ounces on Wednesday, lifting them 4.7 percent to a record 304,635 ounces.

…

LONDON (Reuters) - Investors in silver have reaped glittering rewards in recent months as prices have soared, but with most gains driven by speculation rather than industrial off-take, the market could be at risk of a sharp correction.

/// more http://uk.reuters.com/article/stocksAndSha...l=0&sp=true

...

Something Ive always wanted to know. How is CGT adminstered ?

You phone HMRC and tell them you have made a capital Gain. They will send you a Self Assessment form.

The system works on trust (or fear) with tough penalties for those who are caught abusing the system (unless that person is an MP).

Ikea do a nice range of fake TV's... I was talking to a friend earlier and I'd like to make a throne out of 5KG silver bars, what an office chair that would make. Perhaps I need a fake one and a real one.

Ikea do a range of covers for silver thrones too

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/categori...ing_room/10664/

Krugerrs might look more authentic with that copper hue. How many would you need to look convincing... 20 perhaps?

I’d be happy if I could get 10 of them mini krugs for £10. They’d make me feel like I had a decent gold collection. Rising Sterling has some benefits

I don’t think any armed organised criminals will waste time robbing gold from me. My TV + computer are worth more than my entire gold collection.

……. maybe I need to buy a fake TV

I've thought about buying a bag of these just in case.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Replica-20-LIBERTY-H...p3286.m63.l1177

That’s a pretty good idea

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trk...mini+krugerrand

EDIT: A coin collector has been robbed at gun point for his coins

http://www.bbc.co.uk/crimewatch/appeals/20...oin_theft.shtml

...

A third attacker then arrived from the van and pushed the gun from Vaughan's mouth shouting at the first attacker for bringing a gun. While the other two attackers grabbed Vaughan's wallet, rings and watch, the third attacker made it clear they had come for his coins. Vaughan helplessly led them through his house to the spare room where he kept the coins. Without checking the bag the coins were kept in, the attackers immediately left, leaving Vaughan dazed. After coming round from the shock of the attack Vaughan called the police.

...

There's a video reconstruction at the above link.

I'm going to keep a bag of bricks in my bedroom

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edit: when's HMG's next debt auction then?

£2bn on Tuesday

£3.5bn on Wednesday

http://www.dmo.gov.uk/reportView.aspx?rptC...uction_Calendar

who said anything about 1:1

...

16:1 here we come

1:16 here we come

I believe this to be a more imporant chart. It shows the amount of above ground gold and silver in ounces since 1900.

 

 

Use the chart to extrapolate the amount of above ground silver in 2020 and then tell me what you believe is going to happen to the price of silver.

 

image from

 

http://www.bullionmark.com/2008/12/how-muc...r-is-there.html

A roll of photographic film contains about 1/100 of an ounce of silver. Film is not recycled after use. The low price of silver makes recycling uneconomic, so much of the silver used in industry is lost forever. From the same web page I took the chart -

 

'The first chart shows that 1 billion ounces of gold existed in 1900 versus 5 billion ounces today in 2008. This makes sense. Gold is valuable, therefore hoarded and its industrial uses are largely reclaimed through recycling. Roughly new mine supply adds to the ounces in existence.

However 12 billion ounces of silver existed in 1900 but only 1 billion remain in 2008. Yes thats right less than 1 billion ounces and there is 5 times more gold available than silver! Why is this so? Well silver has far more industrial uses than gold. It is critical to electronics, whitegoods, medical technology, solar technology, industrial equipment, water purification, photography, nano technology, military weapons etc etc. Silver is critical in our daily lives. However the low price of silver makes recycling uneconomic, so silver used is silver consumed and lost forever. Secondly, silver is mined as a bi product of other metals such as zinc, lead, copper and gold. Silver is scarce in the earth and very expensive to mine. World silver mine supply could decline substantially in the next 2 years as economic conditions worsen around the globe. Silver mines themselves are going bust (ie Macmin silver in Australia) but also the base metal miners who mine some silver as a bi product have now become uneconomic and closing at an accelerated pace. Peak silver is with us!'

 

Some facts about silver -

 

 

'# Silver has superior bactericidal qualities. Small concentrations of silver or silver salts kill bacteria by chemically affecting the cell membranes, causing them to break down. Bacteria do not develop resistance to silver, as they do to many antibiotics.

 

# Silver is the best conductor of heat of all elements. Its uses in solar panels and automobile rear window defoggers take advantage of this quality.

 

# Silver is the best conductor of electricity of all elements. In fact, silver defines conductivity - all other metals are compared against it. On a scale of 0 to 100, silver ranks 100, with copper at 97 and gold at 76. Silver is commonly used in electrical circuits and contacts. Silver is also utilized in batteries where dependability is mandatory and weight restrictions apply, such as those for portable surgical tools, hearing aids, pacemakers and space travel.

 

# Silver has the highest degree of optical reflectivity of all elements. A silver mirror can reflect about 95% of the visible light spectrum. (most mirrors are silver). Besides vanity uses, mirrors are important components in telescopes, microscopes and solar panels.

 

# Silver is more ductile than any element except gold. One ounce of silver can be drawn into 8,000 feet of thin wire.

 

# Silver is more malleability than any element except gold. One grain of silver can be made into a sheet one hundred and fifty times thinner than a piece of paper.'

 

From http://www.silverusersassociation.org/silver/facts.shtml

If only...

It might happen one day

Me too! I have around £2 so far

 

1997 2p is also copper.

In respose to a PM I got

It’s not worth it to be honest with you. 1000 2pence coins have a face value of £20 and an intrinsic value of £20.61 (today’s prices). This is a loss making position if I include the cost of the melt.

I tend to take the coppers out of my pocket and keep them in a jar anyway…. so all I am doing is putting some coins in a separate jar.

The strategy will only work for me if we get hyperinflation. The copper 1pence and 2pence should retain 100% of their purchasing power. In fact, the coins should gain in purchasing power in this scenario.

Ignoring hyperinflation, I don’t foresee a scenario when I can sell the coins for profit so I have no exit strategy. I’ll probably end up leaving the whole lot to my grandchildren. These coins could be worth a fortune to them in 100 years time.

When I was a child, my neighbour showed me a box of 3pences he’d been collecting ever since coming to the UK between the world wars. After he died, his children pilfered his belongings and put his house on the market. My parent’s bought the house as a buy2let. I went into the house and found the box of coins was still there in the cellar. BUT, I knew the coins were not accepted as money so I left them. Tenants came and went; nobody touched the box of coins. Later, my parent’s sold the house. The box of coins was still in there.

Assuming this box was 50% pre 1947 and 50% pre 1920. The box of coins is worth around £30 grand right now. I’m soooo kicking myself for not taking the coins. The coins could still be in the house right now.

Found some gold supply/demand information. I’ve not seen this posted before

http://www.blackrock.co.uk/content/groups/...mea02012243.pdf

It was interesting to note some of the points raised by GFMS, the authoritative gold consultancy, in their

preliminary survey on the 2008 gold market. Some of the highlights of the report include: a 4% decline in

mine production, to the lowest level since 1995; South African supply fell by 14%, the steepest percentage

fall since 1901. South Africa, which had been the world’s largest producer for more than a century, now

ranks third behind China and USA in terms of gold production; meanwhile, central bank sales were down

42.5%; on the demand-side, jewellery offtake was down 8% in 2008; producer de-hedging was down by

22%; and gold bar hoarding surged by 62%. In terms of the outlook for gold prices, GFMS expects prices to

trade in the US$750-1,080/oz range in the first half of 2009.

...

Are you sure? I've only got 3 but they all make a very different noise to a 1988 coin when tapped and allowed to reverberate. They sound much more like a 2000 coin.

Sorry, it is some of the 1998 2pence coins according to Wikkipedia. I’m not with my collection right now so I can’t check for certain.

Copper is not magnetic. Whereas the copper coated steel coins are magnetic. It’s very quick and easy to sort through a bag of coins using a magnet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_pence_(Br...h_decimal_coin)

The coin was initially minted from bronze, but since 1992 it has been minted in copper-plated steel except for a few months in 1998 when bronze was used again. As copper-plated steel is less dense than bronze, post-1992 coins have been slightly thicker. The coin weighs 7.12 grams and has a diameter of 25.9 millimetres.

...

550! Plenty of people felt otherwise then.

...

I spent last night having nightmares about the 1/10th Pandas I had missed.

I was determined to BUY the special offer [regardless] by the time I got out of bed.

We can do it in the UK with copper. Before 1992 1p and 2p coins were made of copper, containing 3.45g of copper per penny. Not as good as silver but there have been times when they're worth more as scrap. I always check the dates and keep the copper ones separate!

me too!!! (only 3Kg so far!) - and I have noticed lately I think the fraction of pre-1992 ones is dropping. My guess is about 1 in 4 but dropping.

Me too! I have around £2 so far

1997 2p is also copper.

Chard will sell you some in the UK or you can deal with the German Mint direct on this site but as GF said numismatic coins are not for the investment collector. If you are collecting for investment then the only things you need to consider is the tax you may have to pay on sale such as CGT, the spread and what is easiest to sell, answer those and you will know what coins to buy.

Thanks for the info.

They are pretty expensive.

I’m not going to be swapping my collection any time soon.