springer Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Hi all, this is my first post after lurking for a very long time. I,ve been watching cgnao's predictions unfold with horror and am trying to protect the family from the 'coming tsunami' as best I can. And I must say thankyou to you all for providing such incredibly valuable information. I'm trying to do as much of my own research as poss so as to not bother you guys with stupid questions but I have become abit stuck with 2 questions. I am nearing my 10k annual allowance ( is it IR or VAT that get notification?) for buying gold bullion( 80% gold, 20% silver) I want to buy more so should I worry about going over the 10K limit or is it irrelavant? Does buying silver trigger the same automatic 'flag'. Secondly, I am beginning to worry that if there is a complete meltdown in banks it could become impossible to sell my gold holding and retrieve my money via a bank transfer from Barclays to my bank. If this is true then is there another way of getting ones money or gold back? I am invested with goldmoney as the safest option I could find without holding a stash at home which unfortunately is not practicle for me. Any help would be appreciated or links to such help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springer Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 sorry if my previous post is in the wrong place - I 'm not too good at this yet! Feel free to move , I dont know how! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFC Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Hi all, this is my first post after lurking for a very long time. I,ve been watching cgnao's predictions unfold with horror and am trying to protect the family from the 'coming tsunami' as best I can. And I must say thankyou to you all for providing such incredibly valuable information. I'm trying to do as much of my own research as poss so as to not bother you guys with stupid questions but I have become abit stuck with 2 questions. I am nearing my 10k annual allowance ( is it IR or VAT that get notification?) for buying gold bullion( 80% gold, 20% silver) I want to buy more so should I worry about going over the 10K limit or is it irrelavant? Does buying silver trigger the same automatic 'flag'. Secondly, I am beginning to worry that if there is a complete meltdown in banks it could become impossible to sell my gold holding and retrieve my money via a bank transfer from Barclays to my bank. If this is true then is there another way of getting ones money or gold back? I am invested with goldmoney as the safest option I could find without holding a stash at home which unfortunately is not practicle for me. Any help would be appreciated or links to such help. I am not sure what flag you are referring to, however the Capital Gains Tax limit is about £9.2k.. after which your profits from any rises in Gold, Silver etc are liable for tax.. Some of the UK coins are legel tender and therefore exempt.. however they do attract a premium over bullion prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Thought about it over dinner.... the "when to stop buying" question. I think I will stop buying gold when I can not buy gold. If there is no increase in wages while the cost of living continues to increase, I imagine it will be that much more difficult to save [all my savings are in gold; markets are not completely rational, neither am I ]. Add to this continued currency debasement and the continued rise in POG and it will not be long before I will be "priced out" of the gold market [just as I had been priced out of the housing market before]. Of course, if this scenario unfolds it is fine as I would have bought into gold at the right time. So it dissolves my conundrum; I will stop buying gold when I no longer can. The PPT remain my best friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notanewmember Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I ll stop buying when I can nip into town and buy gold bars in 10 minutes. No jeweller in town carries bars or coins - or at least advertises them in some way. The only way I can buy is through the handful of mail order companies or travel 20 miles to the nearest dealer - who only carry a small stock. Talk about a small market in the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malvern hills Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I am not sure what flag you are referring to, however the Capital Gains Tax limit is about £9.2k.. after which your profits from any rises in Gold, Silver etc are liable for tax.. Some of the UK coins are legel tender and therefore exempt.. however they do attract a premium over bullion prices I think springer is talking about buyers of gold above £2000 at one time or more than £10000 from the same supplier in one fin year-hope this helps to clarify-don't know answer to question though sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springer Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I am not sure what flag you are referring to, however the Capital Gains Tax limit is about £9.2k.. after which your profits from any rises in Gold, Silver etc are liable for tax.. Some of the UK coins are legel tender and therefore exempt.. however they do attract a premium over bullion prices Thanks for the reply Matt, I'm obviously confused then. I thought I had read somewhere that if you purchase more than 1K of gold in a year you get automatically registered with someone( cant remember who). Maybe it is the CGT that I was thinking of then . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitbigt Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Well nearly at 1000....just a little curious.......have any of you considered at what point you will stop buying bullion. At 1000, 1200, 1500 or +?? Interesting question ...and perhaps its appearance on this bb is a sign that a top is in sight (even though quite a way off still)? To answer this question, I think it's important to work out WHY you're putting your money into gold (or whatever). It's presumably either to try to get rich, or to avoid getting poor (since currencies are all becoming worth less), or you are 'investing' the money for some future plan (e.g., buying a house, a pension). But in all cases, you need an exit strategy, and you need to stick to it ! In my case I want... a. to try to get out of cash and into assets as much as possible, so that currency devaluation is circumvented b. to specifically use my money and investments to buy primarily a nice family house, and also some rental property Given the above, and from my understanding of global economics, my CURRENT prediction and plan is.... - to have 1/3 of all my available funds in PMs, and have achieved this since late 2006 [already enough profit for small family house] - other 2/3 is secure in cash/bonds and being used to buy rental propertys in Switzerland (..can explain why if you're interested) - will put big chunks of that 2/3 into oil if price drops to 100, or BRIC stock market when its cheap (later next year?) - feeling certain gold will reach 1200-1500 in next year, I'm possibly/probably going to sell then, as I will then have enough to buy the desired house and want to lock that in (though will delay purchase a year or two more until UK house prices are bottoming and people are desperate and will do a great deal for cash) - may delay the gold selling a little if the pound hasn't yet collapsed as it surely will in next 12-24 months - feeling uncertain gold will go to 2000 or above (it really should, but the PPT may not let it) I am expecting to sell ALL rather than just most of my gold - from 2010 onwards I'm expecting deflationary recession, and gold price falling, so I don't want to be caught holding when that happens - will eventually buy some more gold when price again gets cheap, as a long term investment for the kids ...but the world is full of surprises, and so all the above can change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wren Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Thanks for the reply Matt, I'm obviously confused then. I thought I had read somewhere that if you purchase more than 1K of gold in a year you get automatically registered with someone( cant remember who). Maybe it is the CGT that I was thinking of then . I don't remember the exact numbers (I don't live in the UK so it doesn't apply too me). But I have read that if you buy more than a certain amount in a year the dealer is required to report it - probably to the Inland Revenue. It might be something like 8k a year. The way to get round that is to buy less than the limit from any one dealer, i.e. use multiple dealers. Sorry I don't remember all the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Interesting question ...and perhaps its appearance on this bb is a sign that a top is in sight (even though quite a way off still)? To answer this question, I think it's important to work out WHY you're putting your money into gold (or whatever). It's presumably either to try to get rich, or to avoid getting poor (since currencies are all becoming worth less), or you are 'investing' the money for some future plan (e.g., buying a house, a pension). But in all cases, you need an exit strategy, and you need to stick to it ! In my case I want... a. to try to get out of cash and into assets as much as possible, so that currency devaluation is circumvented b. to specifically use my money and investments to buy primarily a nice family house, and also some rental property Given the above, and from my understanding of global economics, my CURRENT prediction and plan is.... - to have 1/3 of all my available funds in PMs, and have achieved this since late 2006 [already enough profit for small family house] - other 2/3 is secure in cash/bonds and being used to buy rental propertys in Switzerland (..can explain why if you're interested) - will put big chunks of that 2/3 into oil if price drops to 100, or BRIC stock market when its cheap (later next year?) - feeling certain gold will reach 1200-1500 in next year, I'm possibly/probably going to sell then, as I will then have enough to buy the desired house and want to lock that in (though will delay purchase a year or two more until UK house prices are bottoming and people are desperate and will do a great deal for cash) - may delay the gold selling a little if the pound hasn't yet collapsed as it surely will in next 12-24 months - feeling uncertain gold will go to 2000 or above (it really should, but the PPT may not let it) I am expecting to sell ALL rather than just most of my gold -from 2010 onwards I'm expecting deflationary recession, and gold price falling, so I don't want to be caught holding when that happens - will eventually buy some more gold when price again gets cheap, as a long term investment for the kids ...but the world is full of surprises, and so all the above can change I can also envisage a deflationary period in the near future.... yet do not think it will be adverse to the value of POG. I imagine that if fiat has not only been debased but also become scarce, gold will be the best currency to have. Why not just hang onto a little for your kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
id5 Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 ... I am nearing my 10k annual allowance ( is it IR or VAT that get notification?) for buying gold bullion( 80% gold, 20% silver) I want to buy more so should I worry about going over the 10K limit or is it irrelavant? Does buying silver trigger the same automatic 'flag'. Secondly, I am beginning to worry that if there is a complete meltdown in banks it could become impossible to sell my gold holding and retrieve my money via a bank transfer from Barclays to my bank. If this is true then is there another way of getting ones money or gold back? I am invested with goldmoney as the safest option I could find without holding a stash at home which unfortunately is not practicle for me. Any help would be appreciated or links to such help. In the UK if you purchase more than £5,000 in one financial calendar year from a dealer then that dealer must inform the HMRC Gold Team of the purchase but the problem is that they no longer exist and haven’t for quite a few years. Dealers are required to record any transaction that could possibly deemed as ‘money laundering’, there are various guidelines produced by various government department but effectively if you pay for something in cash above £500 then they like some form of ID. If the transaction is paid for by a card then there is automatically some form of identification, ditto bank transfer etc but this does not stop them from asking. If the SHTF then first you will be limited to the amounts that you can transfer between banks and get out of the ATM’s. Buyers will be limited to the amount of cash that they can give you as well. If it gets worse than that then you may lose part or all of the debt that the bank owes you and that includes ETF’s as well. If you are able to get your hands on any of the debt then it will be in very small amounts and a long time after the SHTF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notanewmember Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 In the UK if you purchase more than £5,000 in one financial calendar year from a dealer then that dealer must inform the HMRC Gold Team of the purchase but the problem is that they no longer exist and haven’t for quite a few years. Bullish eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFC Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 In the UK if you purchase more than £5,000 in one financial calendar year from a dealer then that dealer must inform the HMRC Gold Team of the purchase but the problem is that they no longer exist and haven’t for quite a few years. Dealers are required to record any transaction that could possibly deemed as ‘money laundering’, there are various guidelines produced by various government department but effectively if you pay for something in cash above £500 then they like some form of ID. If the transaction is paid for by a card then there is automatically some form of identification, ditto bank transfer etc but this does not stop them from asking. If the SHTF then first you will be limited to the amounts that you can transfer between banks and get out of the ATM’s. Buyers will be limited to the amount of cash that they can give you as well. If it gets worse than that then you may lose part or all of the debt that the bank owes you and that includes ETF’s as well. If you are able to get your hands on any of the debt then it will be in very small amounts and a long time after the SHTF. From BullionVault: Current legislation requires that where gold is physically delivered to British citizens in a sum exceeding £5,000 in one transaction (or aggregating £10,000 in a full year) then a report must be filed with HM Revenue and Custom's 'Gold Team'. But the Gold Team no longer exists, so although the legislation remains there is no practical way of obeying it. In any event BullionVault does not routinely make physical delivery into the hands of its users (although users are entitled). The nature of BullionVault's business and the fact that BullionVault retains all records of transactions has been notified to HMRC in writing and acknowledged by them. For the time being no-one at HMRC is seeking or receiving any reports of BullionVault trading or holdings." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
id5 Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 From BullionVault: Current legislation requires that where gold is physically delivered to British citizens in a sum exceeding £5,000 in one transaction (or aggregating £10,000 in a full year) then a report must be filed with HM Revenue and Custom's 'Gold Team'. But the Gold Team no longer exists, so although the legislation remains there is no practical way of obeying it. In any event BullionVault does not routinely make physical delivery into the hands of its users (although users are entitled). The nature of BullionVault's business and the fact that BullionVault retains all records of transactions has been notified to HMRC in writing and acknowledged by them. For the time being no-one at HMRC is seeking or receiving any reports of BullionVault trading or holdings." Yep! Thats effectively what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitbigt Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I can also envisage a deflationary period in the near future.... yet do not think it will be adverse to the value of POG. I imagine that if fiat has not only been debased but also become scarce, gold will be the best currency to have. Sorry for my stupidity, but I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean... - 'deflationary period': cost of living lower in pounds sterling, & - 'falling POG': price of gold lower in pounds sterling, & - 'stable value of POG': value stable/increase relative to cost of living?? (but falling in pounds sterling) If so, surely its even better to have ones wealth in pounds sterling (or assets that are not decreasing in monetary value, e.g., Swiss property) at that stage? Why not just hang onto a little for your kids. The two of them have got 1kg each now, and that will not be sold until they're adults and can decide for themselves. Hope to make that 5kg each by the time they're 18. And all being well, they'll also inherit £1M of rental properties and a large family home. ...unless I screw up with the above plan, and/or go insane and blow it all in my final years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFC Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 The two of them have got 1kg each now, and that will not be sold until they're adults and can decide for themselves. Hope to make that 5kg each by the time they're 18. And all being well, they'll also inherit £1M of rental properties and a large family home. ...unless I screw up with the above plan, and/or go insane and blow it all in my final years Lucky kids although I presume you want to instill a good work ethic. I think it was Peter Jones (as in Dragons Den).. or one of them anyway, who had a good idea with respect to controlling his kids incentives around wealth. He offered to match each pound they earned.. with one from the trust fund. I liked it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azazel Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I don't remember the exact numbers (I don't live in the UK so it doesn't apply too me). But I have read that if you buy more than a certain amount in a year the dealer is required to report it - probably to the Inland Revenue. It might be something like 8k a year. The way to get round that is to buy less than the limit from any one dealer, i.e. use multiple dealers. Sorry I don't remember all the details. I was told by ATS that if I bought more than £5000 in a year (I think the number was) then they need to have a copy of my passport and proof of address on file in case inland revenue want to look at it. That doesn't mean they will though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Sorry for my stupidity, but I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean... - 'deflationary period': cost of living lower in pounds sterling, & - 'falling POG': price of gold lower in pounds sterling, & - 'stable value of POG': value stable/increase relative to cost of living?? (but falling in pounds sterling) If so, surely its even better to have ones wealth in pounds sterling (or assets that are not decreasing in monetary value, e.g., Swiss property) at that stage? The two of them have got 1kg each now, and that will not be sold until they're adults and can decide for themselves. Hope to make that 5kg each by the time they're 18. And all being well, they'll also inherit £1M of rental properties and a large family home. ...unless I screw up with the above plan, and/or go insane and blow it all in my final years Sorry for my lack of clarity. I guess what I was meaning to say is that if there was first a period of chronic or hyper inflation followed on by a period of deflation it would mean something quite different for our pounds or dollars than if we faced either hyperinflation or deflation. If deflation followed on from hyperinflation, remember those pounds will have been debased. We could then face something of a double whammy; we would have less of a debased currency. Given this scenario it is difficult to say that POG would be lower in pounds. Could be a lot higher in pounds.... but those pounds could be worth a lot less than 2008 pounds. [Remember, with globalization, products will gravitate to the strongest currencies, so the purchasing power of debased currencies will likely remain weak] As for the value of POG. That would be an oxymoron. It does not make sense to ask the value of a price. You would first have to ask the value of what you priced something in. The real value of gold will reside in what people are prepared to pay for it, in money or in real assets, and I would imagine the value will increase [the price in stirling would be irrelevant]. I think a copernican revolution in thought is required when we start to entertain the idea of a debased currency. Our currency is on a slippery slope and is no longer a fixed point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus Hope that clarified things a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitbigt Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Lucky kids although I presume you want to instill a good work ethic. I think it was Peter Jones (as in Dragons Den).. or one of them anyway, who had a good idea with respect to controlling his kids incentives around wealth. He offered to match each pound they earned.. with one from the trust fund. I liked it! Getting off topic... but yes, they are lucky, though I don't think inheriting £2/3M each is so exceptional. That's one years bonus for many fat cats these days. Regarding work ethic, I think that's over-rated [and I'm not surprised to hear such an idea from a money-obsessed dragon]! The attitude we try to instill in our rugrats is that its 'just money' - be gad you've got some, and don't be profligate with it, but also don't let it dictate your decisions. If you have little money one day, you'll still get by (and believe me, I know!!!!). Instead, concentrate on doing things in your life that interest, challenge, entertain, and fulfill you. ....there endeth the sermon PS: they also play MoshiMonsters (http://www.moshimonsters.com/), which is a great way to teach them the rules of earning money ('rox') and buying (virtual) stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitbigt Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Sorry for my lack of clarity. I guess what I was meaning to say is that if their was first a period of chronic or hyper inflation followed on by a period of deflation it would mean something quite different for our pounds or dollars than if we faced either hyperinflation or deflation. If deflation followed on from hyperinflation, remember those pounds will have been debased. We could then face something of a double whammy; we would have less of a debased currency. Given this scenario it is difficult to say that POG would be lower in pounds. Could be a lot higher in pounds.... but those pounds could be worth a lot less than 2008 pounds. [Remember, with globalization, products will gravitate to the strongest currencies, so the purchasing power of debased currencies will likely remain weak] As for the value of POG. That would be an oxymoron. It does not make sense to ask the value of a price. You would first have to ask the value of what you priced something in. The real value of gold will reside in what people are prepared to pay for it, in money or in real assets, and I would imagine the value will increase [the price in stirling would be irrelevant]. I think a copernican revolution in thought is required when we start to entertain the idea of a debased currency. Our currency is on a slippery slope and is no longer a fixed point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus Hope that clarified things a little Thanks, that helps. I guess the problem in any such discussions is identifying the 'base reference' against which to value the 'things' (cash, gold, stocks, houses...) one might put ones wealth into. The 'cost of living' seems one good reference ...though I'm not talking about inflation stats - I mean the real 'price' of 'paying for' a normal western lifestyle. Gold is another candidate reference, but that only works over very long time scales (decades/centuries). Short term (months/years) gold goes up and down relative to the cost of living, just like other assets and currencies! Other reference options would be average salaries, and even house prices (though again, over years/decades). But one cannot INVEST in 'cost of living' nor in 'average salaries' to preserve wealth. Instead, one can invest in gold and property. The trick, therefore, is to buy these two asset classes when they're low against 'cost of living' and against 'average salaries' and sell when they're high. Hence my plan: hold gold now while its going up, and move the gold money into houses when gold has peaked and houses are at rock bottom. Then I'll sit in my house regardless of future property value fluctuations (as its a home as well as an asset), and take the rental earnings over decades from the rental properties (note: rental houses earn money, gold does not earn interest!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Agreed. I also think we will see a rennaisance in the monetary function of gold and that it will become our new fixed point in referencing value. Conversations such as these surely show our need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinBrick Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Well nearly at 1000....just a little curious.......have any of you considered at what point you will stop buying bullion. At 1000, 1200, 1500 or +?? I was thinking 1000, but I doubt I will be able to resist. [it would have been good to put a survey together for this question but am not sure how to do that] Just as a contrarian voice to the conventional wisdom on this forum, Paul van Eeden, respected contributor to Commodity Watch Radio, produced a revised version of his gold price model for his newsletter last week. Paul estimates the theoretical price according to his model at $776 for 2008 and $843 for next year. Now, he accepts that there is plenty of scope for an overshoot and says the actual price could easily reach $1,500 or more, but believes gold is overvalued and advises due caution in gold investment should be applied. Personally, since the upward trend is intact I will remain long gold, but have no particular target price in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romans holiday Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Yep, there are no certainties in life.... just educated guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFC Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Not sure about goldmoney.... but would hazard a guess that gold will dip again to 960. Funds cleared this a.m.. thanks to the usual 15:30 dip.. picked up a stack at $959 :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sossij Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Funds cleared this a.m.. thanks to the usual 15:30 dip.. picked up a stack at $959 :-) Quite a dip too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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