SILVER

[grumpy-old-man]

Why don't you have a look at the Iceland threads (at least two on here)?

 

I'd say: Yes.

 

I remember a clip someone (you?) put up about an architect who lost everything & was living in a camper van.

 

It's very strange that we do not see anything on mainstream media/tv showing Iceland's current plight/situation. I wonder why.

[ziknik]

In a SHTF scenario I am sure there simply aren't enough old silver coins around

…

Yes, good point. I suppose there isn’t enough of anything (not even one ounce bullion coins) to use as money if fiat becomes worthless.

 

…

(if they did they should have hoarded as many as they could and now they'd be laughing millionaires).

People did hoard them! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law

 

…

What's the silver content of a Crown anyway? .654321??

26 grams pure silver.

 

I bet most people don't even know, but they know a Troy ounce bullion coin contains 1 ounce of silver-no messing. Half ounce is exactly that, half on ounce, quarter,quarter etc etc.

…

:lol: You’ve just proved that ounces are not as simple as you claim. Can you see your mistake?

 

For the time being, buying today, modern bullion wins hands down. Next is any silver coins closest to spot. For me that means US quarters and half dollars. But it could be different if I was in the UK, granted.

What country are you in?

 

Maybe we need a when TSHTF thread?

There are several

[id5]

In a SHTF scenario I am sure there simply aren't enough old silver coins around and people wont be thinking about the 'old' 5 or 10p's. ...

I do not think that there will be enough even though there are still many around. As I have said somewhere on here before, most probably in one of the SHTF or survival threads, if fiat collapses and becomes just paper then gold will be for after, during the recovery, your store of wealth. You will get paid in silver and purchase your daily goods in copper. Value will be weight and purity based and it is very easy to check the validity of these three PM’s because they have be real money for 1,000's of low tech years.

[Pixel8r]

Silver lease rates

 

 

Bill

This is a sure sign of silver manipulation. What profit motive could stimulate an entity to loan out a valuable commodity and wish to get back less than they loaned out?

 

Obviously they won't lend me a hundred million oz and let me pay back all but 3.7 mil oz. They are lending it to someone with the express intention of suppressing the price of silver.

 

Gold lease rates have just all returned to at least 0. To me it implies that the boyz are really afraid of silver getting away from them.

They certainly are getting desperate, hold on to your bars.

 

 

 

[Jake]

' You’ve just proved that ounces are not as simple as you claim. Can you see your mistake?'

 

No, I can't see my mistake, unless you are picking hairs in my sentence. 1 troy ounce bullion coin contains 1 troy ounce. Half ounce bullion coins contain half that amount etc etc. I understand that troy ounces are heavier than avoirdupois ounces if that is what you mean.

 

I think people will quickly come to understand that bullion coins/troy ounces contain 31.10 grams. Well, maybe not.. but they will quickly come to understand that when the gold/silver world talks in ounces they mean Troy ounces. When, hopefully one day, houses cost 100 ounces of gold, they wont be caring about avoirdupois. They will simply be stacking their Kruggerands in lines of 10x10. Likewise Dow ratio at 5:1 or 2:1 or 1:1 or less, it will be troy ounces that people will be thinking about.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Crowns and and some of the old coins, I just dont think people will, generally, think about anything other than Troy weights when/if we have a SHTF scenario.

 

I am in Japan.

[Jake]

I do not think that there will be enough even though there are still many around. As I have said somewhere on here before, most probably in one of the SHTF or survival threads, if fiat collapses and becomes just paper then gold will be for after, during the recovery, your store of wealth. You will get paid in silver and purchase your daily goods in copper. Value will be weight and purity based and it is very easy to check the validity of these three PM’s because they have be real money for 1,000's of low tech years.

 

Yes, I agree. Wasn't it you who said somewhere 'different tools for different jobs'. Great comment in relation to all this. So we should be hoarding our coppers? Actually I have been, but have felt too sad to tell anyone.

[Jake]

True Jake, anyone who makes it their business to know the facts has confidence issues with sterling and fiat, but at the moment, the masses think everything is hunkydory and are happily converting their "unwanted" PM's into fiat. As buyers of PM's, I think we will remain "nutters" for a while yet.

 

In a post sterling collapse environment the price of gold will be prohibitively expensive and silver will be the affordable PM investment vehicle of choice for the masses.

 

BTW, I would be interested to know what the generally accepted definition of a S hitting TF scenario might be?

 

Are we talking about sterling collapse and/or civil unrest, societal and/or basic infrastructure collapse or massive global confidence erosion in fiat currency?

 

Are Icelanders living through a SHTF scenario? Just curious, as well as just learning.

 

 

The masses happily getting fiat for their granny's old jewelry-I pity their desperation and despise their greed. Many of them deserve to be fleeced for their lack of research. Many are genuinely short of cach to pay the mortgage/food/credit card. And I feel sorry for them. I am happy to be a 'nutter' and have alienated friends and family members for my pains. Now I just shut up and buy.

 

Like yourself I think gold will become prohibitively expensive. At 670 pounds I consider it pretty expensive now (relative to 2003/4), even though it is still 'cheap' to its final destination. Like your reasoning I have by and large switched to silver, it being the affordable option-and maybe better as investment/speculation/.insurance than gold. I have reduced gold purchases to smaller fractional coins and sovereigns which may pull up more with a numismatic twist. If not then it is all bullion anyway.

 

The oft quoted 'SHTF scenario' is many things to many people. I hope to god that many of the things I read will not come to pass, but I have kids and my first thoughts are to protect them as best I can. It doesn't really help that even the most respected minds in the thinking financial world are at a loss as to explain what comes next. People have come from being hyperinflationists to deflationists and vice versa at the drop of a hat. Then the order of our fall into depression is squabbled over. A deflationary hell, a hyperinflationary depression, a depression leading to hyperinflation etc etc...

 

So I haven't the foggiest what to expect really. Just get prepared as best you can. One thing for sure, the years 2012-2018 aren't going to be much fun by all accounts. That almost everyone is in agreement with, whatever ~flation you adhere to. I am a believer that gold and silver will be 2 things to do you well by. So get them in. While you can. I also think a good garden and being able to garden could be a life saving plus. Fishing equipment useful. Food storage, well I live in in the richter zone of the world, so we are always prepared for that to some extent. Passports kept up to date also handy. Fresh water nearby, very useful. Bit of a supply of diesel/gasoline/parrafin. Woods close by.

 

'Are we talking about sterling collapse and/or civil unrest, societal and/or basic infrastructure collapse or massive global confidence erosion in fiat currency?

 

 

You are pretty much on track there as much as me. Can you imagine the UK with sterling collapse/civil unrest/basic infrastructure colapse? There are so many chavs now that the country (or large sections of it) would be hell. These mugs have just sold their gold and silver, are hungry, out of work, the money in their pocket is as good as worthless, their bank closed. Many are violent have few morals have never been tested before and are so used to their bread and circus that to have it stripped away all at once will be more than they can bear. I certainly wouldnt like to be amongst them. The supermarket on Saturdays is bad enough.

 

So I dont think anyone knows what to expect. All we can do is try as best we can get prepared. The UK's route will not be as decorous as Iceland if the going gets bad. They've only got a handful of a population and are all probably well educated and philosophical. The UK on the otherhand...well, look around on Saturdays, it's scary.

 

Better get onto Chards website again and cheer myself up...

 

 

[G0ldfinger]

DOUBLE POST

Well, I've been selling silver above $17 and buying puts on SLV fwiw

I bought a whole bunch of coins below $17.

[Concrete Jungle]

Yes, I agree. Wasn't it you who said somewhere 'different tools for different jobs'. Great comment in relation to all this. So we should be hoarding our coppers? Actually I have been, but have felt too sad to tell anyone.

 

I sorted my one and two pence collection in to pre and post 1992 coins last week. Someone on here thought I was a bit mad for doing the same to their copper coin collection.

[electroweak]

I sorted my one and two pence collection in to pre and post 1992 coins last week. Someone on here thought I was a bit mad for doing the same to their copper coin collection.

Not mad at all. I have 3Kg of pre-1992 Cu now!

[Concrete Jungle]

Not mad at all. I have 3Kg of pre-1992 Cu now!

 

After sorting I couldn't resist a trip to the kitchen to weigh my bounty. Only 1.6 kg of copper but I will add to that. I did wonder about changing £20 in to coppers at the bank and sorting those. (Strangely I found sorting the coins quite therapeutic and relaxing).

[TrueNorth]

I have gradually been adding to my silver coin collection. Now I am thinking I need to add copper!

[Tomas43]

Gold and silver are good investments silver might even be one step better because gold and silver are quite far from eachother at the moment, here is a nice editorial http://libertysilver.se/pages.php/page/silver_as_investment

[nicejim]

I have gradually been adding to my silver coin collection. Now I am thinking I need to add copper!

I save my pre-1992 coins but they're only worth slightly more than face value. Given the weight and volume of a few pounds' worth of copper I doubt it has a part to play in a SHTF scenario or otherwise.

 

http://copper2009.com/

[Schaublin]

Securing bullion at the best possible price has been my primary goal for a long time, but I am always considering my exit strategy. Like all of us, I am trying to position myself favourably for a myriad of possible future scenarios. One of which could well be the SHTF and in which case we are holding bullion and hopefully protected.

 

I am also thinking that a scenario could emerge whereby SHTF is avoided, but peoples confidence in fiat is significantly eroded due to a single/sequence of severe but temporary shocks to the monetary system and the price of PM's has risen considerably but not exploded.

 

Life goes on, people are scared, the internet is still working, CiD still buy and sell PM's and the holding of physical PM's is not commonplace but crucially, the fundamentals of gold and silver are understood by many. In this environment, I can envisage a strong market developing for high quality and unusual investment pieces for long term holding.

 

Meanwhile, I would be holding onto my core bullion to hedge against further shocks, but would offload investment pieces into the marketplace probably using a popular internet auction site.

 

 

I have read many posts on the subject of SHTF use of silver and gold in daily transactions for groceries etc. IMO it will not happen. Of course there are many types of SHTF but short of a true Mad max scenario, government fiat will be issued and used - even if it loses half of its purchasing power every week. We have many recent examples of currency collapse and people's behavior is similar in all cases.

 

1. Those with foresight (hopefully GEI members), see the writing on the wall and exchange their fiat for precious metals and/or stable foreign currencies while it is possible to do it at a good rate.

 

2. You plan a day of spending - pay your car tax, buy some groceries etc and buy enough local currency for these purposes.

 

3. Expensive items will be sold (or certainly advertised in OZ gold/silver/Yuan) in order that the price is understood.

 

 

The point is that gold/silver will not be used for everyday transactions but will be the ultimate store of wealth - with a bonus of increasing its purchasing power several times.

 

[TrueNorth]

Is it me. . . or has the gold:silver ratio just jumped to 62 from yesterday's 60.74ish?

 

Does this portend a change in the credit markets?

[id5]

Yes, I agree. Wasn't it you who said somewhere 'different tools for different jobs'. Great comment in relation to all this. So we should be hoarding our coppers? Actually I have been, but have felt too sad to tell anyone.

Close, what I said was 'buy the correct tool for the job' from the A Short Guide to Buying Coins thread that I wrote a while back.

 

Don't feel sad, I hoard all non-ferrous metals from tin cans to coin. People make take the mickey but it always may me smile when I get cash for the scrap

[carbon junkie]

I have read many posts on the subject of SHTF use of silver and gold in daily transactions for groceries etc. IMO it will not happen. Of course there are many types of SHTF but short of a true Mad max scenario, government fiat will be issued and used - even if it loses half of its purchasing power every week. We have many recent examples of currency collapse and people's behavior is similar in all cases.

What happened in Zimbabwe? I thought they used gold for grocery purchases.

 

It's the most recent currency collapse and the behaviour was different and it never went Mad Max.

 

I think you may be wrong on this.

[id5]

I have read many posts on the subject of SHTF use of silver and gold in daily transactions for groceries etc. IMO it will not happen. Of course there are many types of SHTF but short of a true Mad max scenario, government fiat will be issued and used - even if it loses half of its purchasing power every week. We have many recent examples of currency collapse and people's behavior is similar in all cases.

 

1. Those with foresight (hopefully GEI members), see the writing on the wall and exchange their fiat for precious metals and/or stable foreign currencies while it is possible to do it at a good rate.

 

2. You plan a day of spending - pay your car tax, buy some groceries etc and buy enough local currency for these purposes.

 

3. Expensive items will be sold (or certainly advertised in OZ gold/silver/Yuan) in order that the price is understood.

 

 

The point is that gold/silver will not be used for everyday transactions but will be the ultimate store of wealth - with a bonus of increasing its purchasing power several times.

In your no:2 scenario with what do you buy your local currency with?

 

When it gets to this stage then capital controls will be in place and unless you have already exchanged your local for a commodity or other countries currency you would have nothing to purchase local currency with. PM’s have little volume compared to value and keep for ever unlike many commodities. Bulky commodities also require storing and increase the risk of robbery on the way to buy enough local currency.

 

Consider gold going to $5,000, five times today’s price, and silver at a ratio of 1:20 somewhat more like its historic norm. With gold at £626 that will be £3130 an ounce or £100 per gram. So a gram of silver will be equal to £5, a fine silver 16” belcher weighs about 2.5 grams or £12 if gold was to go that high, 10 silver chains for your weekly shop.

 

[Schaublin]

What happened in Zimbabwe? I thought they used gold for grocery purchases.

 

It's the most recent currency collapse and the behaviour was different and it never went Mad Max.

 

I think you may be wrong on this.

 

The Zim dollar was still being used right into hyperinflation - check out the news reports of early this year. It is true that no-one wanted it in exchange for private goods and services but you still needed it to pay for official things. USD was the unofficial currency - now de-facto official.

[Schaublin]

In your no:2 scenario with what do you buy your local currency with?

 

When it gets to this stage then capital controls will be in place and unless you have already exchanged your local for a commodity or other countries currency you would have nothing to purchase local currency with. PM’s have little volume compared to value and keep for ever unlike many commodities. Bulky commodities also require storing and increase the risk of robbery on the way to buy enough local currency.

 

Consider gold going to $5,000, five times today’s price, and silver at a ratio of 1:20 somewhat more like its historic norm. With gold at £626 that will be £3130 an ounce or £100 per gram. So a gram of silver will be equal to £5, a fine silver 16” belcher weighs about 2.5 grams or £12 if gold was to go that high, 10 silver chains for your weekly shop.

 

With your foreign currency or with your gold or silver. If you don't have this you will have to rely on your salary which means you will be very poor. Forget about trading silver chains in a supermarket - it will never happen - you will have to go through the intermediary of fiat.

[Pixel8r]

With your foreign currency or with your gold or silver. If you don't have this you will have to rely on your salary which means you will be very poor. Forget about trading silver chains in a supermarket - it will never happen - you will have to go through the intermediary of fiat.

From: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xnIFzP2bTY

 

 

[Schaublin]

From: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xnIFzP2bTY

 

 

I do not see what this proves. Of course, some currency traders and gold/silver traders may set up shop within a grocery store - this happened in ex Soviet Union but you would get better rates outside the shop and you still convert to fiat for the purchase of the groceries.

[Pixel8r]

IS SILVER MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD?

 

Bill Murray

 

When one is doing a comparison of items as to their value a lot depends on the circumstances one is in. For example if you are lost in the desert and dying of thirst, water becomes very precious, yet it is one of the most abundant things on the planet.

 

Why is gold a $1000.00 per ounce and silver $17.00 per ounce when;

 

We have more gold above ground than silver.

 

We consume silver and store gold. One-day silver will be very scarce.

 

If you were in the hospital with 3rd degree burns what would you rather have, an ounce of gold or silver? Silver kills bacteria and can save your life. One wonders why silver is not used for the swine flue, if it really is a threat. [Can’t put a patent on silver maybe] Check out colloidal silver at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloidal_silver .

 

Silver is about 10 times more plentiful in the earths crust then gold, why is it not 10 to 1 in price?

 

Silver is money same as gold, in the US Constitution a dollar is defined as 371.25 grains of silver. [400 grains per ounce] When Iraq was putting together their constitution, Jay Leno said, “Send them ours [constitution] as we are not using it any more”. How true.

 

In 1900 there was 1 billion oz. of gold above ground at $20.00 per oz. = 20 Billion

 

In 1900 there was 12 billion oz. of silver above ground at $0.65 per oz. = 7.8 Billion

 

Ratio was $20.00 divided by $0.65 = 30 oz. silver to 1 oz of gold

 

Ratio in market cap is 20 billion divided by 7.8 billion = 2.56 to 1

 

The Total amount of gold was worth 2.5 times more than silver in 1900

 

In 2009 there is approx. 5 billion oz. of gold at $1000.00 = 5 trillion dollars

 

In 2009 there is approx. 1 billion oz. of silver at $17.00 per oz. = 17 billion dollars

 

Ratio is $1000.00 divided by $17.00 = 58 to 1

 

Ratio in market cap is 5 trillion dollars divided by 17 billion dollars = 294 to 1

 

The Total amount of gold is worth approximately 294 times more than silver in 2009.

 

If we used 1900’s market cap at 2.5 to 1, silver’s price today would be, 5 trillion dollars worth of gold divided by 2.5 = 2 trillion dollars [silvers value] divided by 1 billion ounces of silver = $2000.00 per ounce.

 

Note: [i believe more silver would appear with higher prices, this is only meant to show how undervalued silver is]

 

Saying silver is undervalued is an understatement of the century, both gold and silver’s true cost of production is probably double their current price when you add all the other costs of exploration and such. Currency creation will drive the prices a lot higher in the near future and also one day soon, silver will be priced for its rarity and not for its cost of production as most silver is a by-product from gold, copper and zinc mines.

 

Getting back to the title of this article, is silver more precious than gold? Society today would have a hard time without silver as we consume it in so many products. I believe silver is more precious than gold, as to the value today, gold is more valuable in dollar terms. A more realistic dollar value today for gold would be $3000.00 per ounce and silver at $300.00 per ounce. This is a 10 to 1 ratio, common sense tells us that the ratio will turn in silvers favour in the future.

 

Check out these site’s as no one has done more for educating investors about silver and gold than Jim Sinclair at www.jsmineset.com or Ted Butler at www.butlerresearch.com or Bill Murphy at www.LeMetropoleCafe.com or Jason Hommel at www.silverstockreport.com/

 

The name SILVER is so precious no other word in the English language rhymes with it.

 

Wm. J Murray

President Silver Phoenix Resources Inc.

CNSX: SP

[HPCsoYESTERDAY]

this article tries to rationalise the silver depletion conundrum

 

World production of silver isn't going to drop yet but we await the day when the USGS will begin to drop that reserves number. When that happens, the world will perhaps begin to believe in silver's Unique Selling Proposition.