SILVER

[wren]

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/zurbuchen120405.html

 

Assuming that these figures are correct, one obtains in ounces per month (22 working days = month):

 

Average wage paid building craftsmen 1850-1899=24 grams silver/day=17.0 oz silver/month

Average wage paid to laborers 1850-1899=13.8 grams silver/day=9.8 oz silver/month

Average wage paid Building craftsmen 1900-1913=63.9 grams silver/day= 45.2 oz silver/month

Average wage paid to laborers 1900-1913=39.5 grams silver/day=27.9 oz silver/month

 

A weighted average of these wages results in a monthly wage of approx. 18.4 oz silver/month.

 

That's 184 pounds per month at the time of writing.

I suspect that they did a 6-day week or even 7-day. In Victorian England I think a lot of people did a 7-day week and only had Christmas Day as a holiday and maybe Sunday mornings to go to Church.

 

Taking 26 days a month (about a 6-day working week):

 

(26/22)*184 = £217 (about).

 

And there's less silver per capita today plus lots of industrial demand which did not exist back then. In historical terms silver looks very cheap.

 

[wren]

I just feel it would be great to see something "special" nestling amongst the usual stuff in my stash.

I bought one 1-kilo Koala just to be able to hold one. A member here posted a pic of a 1-kilo Libertad and I couldn't resist getting a 1-kilo Koala.

 

Reminds of Crocodile Dundee when a guy pulls out a knife: "You call that a knife?"

 

With a 1-kilo you can say "You call that a coin? Now this is a coin!"

 

Those Alderney coins you linked are seriously nice looking. Even with a younger Queen's head!

 

[G0ldfinger]

I suspect that they did a 6-day week or even 7-day. In Victorian England I think a lot of people did a 7-day week and only had Christmas Day as a holiday and maybe Sunday mornings to go to Church.

 

Taking 26 days a month (about a 6-day working week):

 

(26/22)*184 = £217 (about).

 

And there's less silver per capita today plus lots of industrial demand which did not exist back then. In historical terms silver looks very cheap.

Good comments, here is an update for a 6-day week:

 

Average wage paid building craftsmen 1850-1899=24 grams silver/day=20.1 oz silver/month

Average wage paid to laborers 1850-1899=13.8 grams silver/day=11.6 oz silver/month

Average wage paid Building craftsmen 1900-1913=63.9 grams silver/day= 53.6 oz silver/month

Average wage paid to laborers 1900-1913=39.5 grams silver/day=32.1 oz silver/month

 

A weighted average of these wages results in a monthly wage of approx. 21.9 oz silver/month.

[id5]

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/zurbuchen120405.html

Assuming that these figures are correct, one obtains in ounces per month (22 working days = month):

...

We did this back in last December. In the UK in 1900 a building labourer was paid £0.21 per day and silver was £0.13 per ounce, I even produced a series of graphs which culminated in the one below.

 

 

 

 

 

[ziknik]

Are the old British silver coins free of capital gains tax?

 

I hadn't seen silver 3d coins. I remember the old 3d coins with was it 7 sides?

...

Are the sixpenny bits of that time 50% silver?

...

Pre decimal coins are not GCT free as they are no longer Sterling 'currency'. BUT... the coins cannot be melted down legally in the UK as they are still Sterling 'coins'

 

The 3d you are thinking of is a post 1937 brass coin. The silver 3d is round.

 

Pre 1947 6d's are silver. Check out the website below

 

 

Images from http://www.coinsgb.com/index.html

 

Thanks Ziknik. So is a Guinea the same as a Sovereign? And did 20 shillings really equal a gold sovereign? Thus 4 crowns for a sovereign? 8 half crowns:1 sovereign. 10 florins:1 sovereign.

 

Who sells old British coins? Anyone know?

ebay is the best place to get pre 1947 silver coins in my experience. They were selling pretty cheap last time I bought (around a year ago).

 

The Sovereign* (8 grams) replaced the Guinea (8.4 grams) in/around 1817.

 

Both coins were the official £1 coin of their time so they are both officially worth 20 Shillings. However, the Guinea contained more gold so it became a £1+1 Shilling coin after changeover to Sovereign (0.4 gold grams = 1 Shilling).

 

Unofficially, the number of Shillings per Guinea varied depending on the value of gold.

 

* There is an older Sovereign but my knowledge of coins doesn't go back far enough.

[G0ldfinger]

We did this back in last December. In the UK in 1900 a building labourer was paid £0.21 per day and silver was £0.13 per ounce, I even produced a series of graphs which culminated in the one below. ...

A bell is ringing.

[Mike Mustard]

Was just checking out coininvestdirect. It is hard to stomach the VAT you have to pay just for swapping fiat for PM coins.

 

Britannia 1 Ounce 2 Pounds 2009

.

Country: Great Britain

Weight: 31.10 Gramm

Purity: 958

Buy Price: £12.24

SELL NETTO PRICE: £15.29

SELL BRUTTO PRICE (incl. VAT): £17.58

Brutto Price includes 15% VAT for customers from United Kingdom

 

Is there any way around this if I want to buy physical?

[id5]

...

The Sovereign* (8 grams) replaced the Guinea (8.4 grams) in/around 1817.

 

Both coins were the official £1 coin of their time so they are both officially worth 20 Shillings. However, the Guinea contained more gold so it became a £1+1 Shilling coin after changeover to Sovereign (0.4 gold grams = 1 Shilling).

 

Unofficially, the number of Shillings per Guinea varied depending on the value of gold.

 

* There is an older Sovereign but my knowledge of coins doesn't go back far enough.

Ziknik is correct, 1817 was the re-birth of the Sovereign and a Guinea was worth £1/1/0.

 

The first Sovereigns were from the reign of Henry VII, the proclimation was issued on the 28th October 1489 and the coins minted soon after.

 

The list of coins below are the sizes and weights of Guineas and the older Sovereigns, all minted out of 22ct gold of course.

 

16.0 mm 2.1 g Quarter Guinea

17.0 mm 2.8 g Third Guinea

19.0 mm 4.0 g Half Sovereign

20.0 mm 4.2 g Half Guinea

22.0 mm 8.0 g Sovereign

25.0 mm 8.4 g One Guinea

28.0 mm 16.0 g Two Pounds

31.5 mm 16.8 g Two Guineas

 

 

 

[id5]

A bell is ringing.

Go and answer the phone GF and then come back to the conversation

[HPCsoYESTERDAY]

last day of the month figs nearly in - draw your own conclusions

 

[Pixel8r]

last day of the month figs nearly in - draw your own conclusions

 

I think the next year will see the angle of incline increase

 

 

[Jake]

Interesting that you should mention resisting serious collecting, Jake. I was browsing Chards website earlier and although not what I would consider serious collecting, I do really like some of their medallic art collections and commemorative kilo coins.

 

2005 Alderney Battle of Trafalgar silver proof kilo coin here; http://24carat.co.uk/2005alderneytrafalgarsilverrkilo.html (Interesting quoted ad from Ebay)

 

and the

 

2002 Alderney Golden Jubilee Fifty Pound Silver Proof Kilo Coin with Selective Gold Plating here; http://24carat.co.uk/2002alderneygoldenjub...silverkilo.html

 

Contacted Chards to check price and availability, both in stock but the price is now £545 each and not £495.

 

Quite a hefty premium, about £100 p/kg more than a standard 1kg silver coin, but I'm getting bored with accumulating 1 oz maples, eagles, pandas and the like. They are nice coins but you can only admire them for so long.

 

I just feel it would be great to see something "special" nestling amongst the usual stuff in my stash.

 

Yes, I know what you mean and some of the collections and commemorative 1 kg's are nice to look at. There's one or two I like there too.

 

Have you thought about trying to collect different dates for some of the eagles or pandas or kookaburras? Bit anorak-ish I know but it might relieve the tedium. TBH though you should buy what you like, just like anything. Only trouble is...I started all this to protect my wealth not to start getting interested in Numismatics, thus I try to resist the pull into fanciable coins when the price is high-ish. I am a bit annoyed with myself that I didn't load up on all the things I liked a few years ago, and no doubt I will say the same thing in another few years...catch 22. I suppose the thing to do is buy your monthly 'insurance' lot plus a little bit of what you like.

 

Another thing to remember is that if when TSHTF the last thing on peoples mind will be mintmarks or dates or collectable 1 kg coins, . More likely it will be a 'show me the money' episode, no messing 1 ounce coins.

 

This is one of the reasons I have for rejecting old British silver coins. The general public will never get their heads around the silver content, grams, .12345 ounces. More likely people will just want to understand the face value and people who have these coins may be blue in the face trying to convince someone of their silver content.

 

Also there is CGT but you can't melt them in the UK. Nonesense!

 

At least with US pre 64 coins you know they are all 90% silver, no messing. For those who know the silver content know, and for those that dont know understand Dollar, half dollar, quarter, dime. etc as it is still their medium of exchange unlike the more esoteric guinea shilling, florin, tanner, bob, hapenny, farthing etc... To boot the British silver pre 1920 stuff I have seen is sometimes worn to death.

 

So for me for the time being it is more of the boring bullion coins, more pre'64 US dollars and the like, the odd sovereign, the odd collectable silver set, kilo bars and the odd numismatic coin if I like it.

 

I like Chards and they have a wonderful website, but they are overpriced IMO. Still they are reliable, trustworthy, friendly and very, very knowledgable. Good solid Northern people. Perhaps I should relocate to Blackpool.

 

[kkeegan123]

 

Yes, I know what you mean and some of the collections and commemorative 1 kg's are nice to look at. There's one or two I like there too.

 

<snip>

 

I like Chards and they have a wonderful website, but they are overpriced IMO. Still they are reliable, trustworthy, friendly and very, very knowledgable. Good solid Northern people. Perhaps I should relocate to Blackpool.

 

Securing bullion at the best possible price has been my primary goal for a long time, but I am always considering my exit strategy. Like all of us, I am trying to position myself favourably for a myriad of possible future scenarios. One of which could well be the SHTF and in which case we are holding bullion and hopefully protected.

 

I am also thinking that a scenario could emerge whereby SHTF is avoided, but peoples confidence in fiat is significantly eroded due to a single/sequence of severe but temporary shocks to the monetary system and the price of PM's has risen considerably but not exploded.

 

Life goes on, people are scared, the internet is still working, CiD still buy and sell PM's and the holding of physical PM's is not commonplace but crucially, the fundamentals of gold and silver are understood by many. In this environment, I can envisage a strong market developing for high quality and unusual investment pieces for long term holding.

 

Meanwhile, I would be holding onto my core bullion to hedge against further shocks, but would offload investment pieces into the marketplace probably using a popular internet auction site.

 

 

[ziknik]

...

This is one of the reasons I have for rejecting old British silver coins. The general public will never get their heads around the silver content, grams, .12345 ounces. More likely people will just want to understand the face value and people who have these coins may be blue in the face trying to convince someone of their silver content.

...

British coins worked successfully as coins for many years and people will take to them very easily IMO. A lot of the older people I know often say, "Shilling", "10 Bob", "That's £5 in new money...."

 

Many people still recognise the Shilling as 'the old 5p' and the Florin as 'the old 10p'. There are still 20 or 10 (respectively) of these coins in a £1.

 

Once you remember this simple similarity, it is quite straight forward to remember that a 6d is half a Shilling and a 3d is half a 6d. A Crown is 5 Shillings.

 

I have many one ounce billion coins. These have never been in circulation in the UK so people will not recognise them.

 

IF TSHTF, I suspect a one ounce Britannia coin will be downgraded to a Crown. whilst some of the foreign coins will not be accepted at all.

[Concrete Jungle]

I like Chards and they have a wonderful website, but they are overpriced IMO. Still they are reliable, trustworthy, friendly and very, very knowledgable. Good solid Northern people. Perhaps I should relocate to Blackpool.

 

I wouldn't wish that on anyone personally. I find Chards expensive and the website not up to date. However they are close enough to permit a trip down the M55 to salivate at the PM's and walk out with my PM's in my hand.

[nicejim]

British coins worked successfully as coins for many years and people will take to them very easily IMO. A lot of the older people I know often say, "Shilling", "10 Bob", "That's £5 in new money...."

If silver becomes a currency then we'll have to work out how much things should cost in pre-1920 coinage, post-1920 coinage and a combination of both. I don't think this will be easy or convenient.

[ziknik]

If silver becomes a currency then we'll have to work out how much things should cost in pre-1920 coinage, post-1920 coinage and a combination of both. I don't think this will be easy or convenient.

Very little will be easy and convenient IF society breaks down.

 

The question is - "What is the easiest and what is the most convenient?"

[Jake]

British coins worked successfully as coins for many years and people will take to them very easily IMO. A lot of the older people I know often say, "Shilling", "10 Bob", "That's £5 in new money...."

 

Many people still recognise the Shilling as 'the old 5p' and the Florin as 'the old 10p'. There are still 20 or 10 (respectively) of these coins in a £1.

 

Once you remember this simple similarity, it is quite straight forward to remember that a 6d is half a Shilling and a 3d is half a 6d. A Crown is 5 Shillings.

 

I have many one ounce billion coins. These have never been in circulation in the UK so people will not recognise them.

 

IF TSHTF, I suspect a one ounce Britannia coin will be downgraded to a Crown. whilst some of the foreign coins will not be accepted at all.

 

In a SHTF scenario I am sure there simply aren't enough old silver coins around and people wont be thinking about the 'old' 5 or 10p's. They'll be valued and traded on their silver content alone, exchanged for goods or any working currency available. I feel sure people will soon bone up on troy ounces-after all it's beautifully simple, which is why they have become so popular. Moreover Troy ounces are recognizable to people all over the world whereas 6d, 3d, shilling, florins and wotnots are known to OAP'S who never even knew that those coins had real silver in them (if they did they should have hoarded as many as they could and now they'd be laughing millionaires). Imagine trying to get an understanding of old french coins, german, peruvian, mexican etc etc. Its a nonsense. It'll come down to ASW (actual silver weight) IMO.

 

People will soon get to know 1 ounce, half ounce, quarter, tenth and what they are worth...but they will be lucky to get a hold of any. I also can't see a Brittania being downgraded to a Crown! Maybe a quarter ounce. What's the silver content of a Crown anyway? .654321?? I bet most people don't even know, but they know a Troy ounce bullion coin contains 1 ounce of silver-no messing. Half ounce is exactly that, half on ounce, quarter,quarter etc etc. I would imagine a Brittania to rocket in price/value.

 

I do think Crowns and old coins will pick up a numismatic aura though, IF they are in good condition and collectable. And thats the trouble with a lot of them pre 1920. They are so worn out in the majority. Still I'm going to have a look around on Sunday at what I can glean.

 

For the time being, buying today, modern bullion wins hands down. Next is any silver coins closest to spot. For me that means US quarters and half dollars. But it could be different if I was in the UK, granted.

 

Maybe we need a when TSHTF thread?

 

 

 

[Jake]

I wouldn't wish that on anyone personally. I find Chards expensive and the website not up to date. However they are close enough to permit a trip down the M55 to salivate at the PM's and walk out with my PM's in my hand.

 

Yes, tongue in cheek on Blackpool (no offence Blackpudlians). Yes their website is often out of date, still it is a veritable feast of goodies and a library of learning. They have recently added add to basket bit too.

 

Lucky you just popping in there!

[Jake]

Securing bullion at the best possible price has been my primary goal for a long time, but I am always considering my exit strategy. Like all of us, I am trying to position myself favourably for a myriad of possible future scenarios. One of which could well be the SHTF and in which case we are holding bullion and hopefully protected.

 

I am also thinking that a scenario could emerge whereby SHTF is avoided, but peoples confidence in fiat is significantly eroded due to a single/sequence of severe but temporary shocks to the monetary system and the price of PM's has risen considerably but not exploded.

 

Life goes on, people are scared, the internet is still working, CiD still buy and sell PM's and the holding of physical PM's is not commonplace but crucially, the fundamentals of gold and silver are understood by many. In this environment, I can envisage a strong market developing for high quality and unusual investment pieces for long term holding.

 

Meanwhile, I would be holding onto my core bullion to hedge against further shocks, but would offload investment pieces into the marketplace probably using a popular internet auction site.

 

Interesting post JL.

 

I am also thinking that a scenario could emerge whereby SHTF is avoided, but peoples confidence in fiat is significantly eroded due to a single/sequence of severe but temporary shocks to the monetary system and the price of PM's has risen considerably but not exploded. '

 

 

I think people's confidence is eroding. Look at China and the dollar. Russia, India, Japan, Brazil are all chipping in with anti dollar comments. Sterling stinks and is ready to plunge by all accounts and the 'nutters' on the internet forums have already changed their 'worthless' fiat into 'real' money 'no one's liability' 'cant print it' etc etc.

 

 

[kkeegan123]

Interesting post JL.

 

I am also thinking that a scenario could emerge whereby SHTF is avoided, but peoples confidence in fiat is significantly eroded due to a single/sequence of severe but temporary shocks to the monetary system and the price of PM's has risen considerably but not exploded. '

 

 

I think people's confidence is eroding. Look at China and the dollar. Russia, India, Japan, Brazil are all chipping in with anti dollar comments. Sterling stinks and is ready to plunge by all accounts and the 'nutters' on the internet forums have already changed their 'worthless' fiat into 'real' money 'no one's liability' 'cant print it' etc etc.

 

True Jake, anyone who makes it their business to know the facts has confidence issues with sterling and fiat, but at the moment, the masses think everything is hunkydory and are happily converting their "unwanted" PM's into fiat. As buyers of PM's, I think we will remain "nutters" for a while yet.

 

In a post sterling collapse environment the price of gold will be prohibitively expensive and silver will be the affordable PM investment vehicle of choice for the masses.

 

BTW, I would be interested to know what the generally accepted definition of a S hitting TF scenario might be?

 

Are we talking about sterling collapse and/or civil unrest, societal and/or basic infrastructure collapse or massive global confidence erosion in fiat currency?

 

Are Icelanders living through a SHTF scenario? Just curious, as well as just learning.

[nicejim]

BTW, I would be interested to know what the generally accepted definition of a S hitting TF scenario might be?

There are many outcomes which qualify. I'd include a family intervention by skilled, military-trained nation-builders.

http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/...-perry_coup.pdf

[InSilverWeTrust]

Hi my friends...I'm back!

 

Glad you took my advice GOM. I just wish I had I had the Fiat you boys have.

 

http://www.investmentrarities.com/ted_butl...y09-30-09.shtml

 

The time is nigh!

 

Love you all!

 

P.S Get in Bubb or lose your head!! ha ha

[G0ldfinger]

...

Are Icelanders living through a SHTF scenario? Just curious, as well as just learning.

Why don't you have a look at the Iceland threads (at least two on here)?

 

I'd say: Yes.

[grumpy-old-man]

Hi my friends...I'm back!

 

Glad you took my advice GOM. I just wish I had I had the Fiat you boys have.

 

http://www.investmentrarities.com/ted_butl...y09-30-09.shtml

 

The time is nigh!

 

Love you all!

 

P.S Get in Bubb or lose your head!! ha ha

 

Hi ISWT,

 

yes, it was largely down to you that I jumped into silver I must admit. many thanks. (edit - obvioulsy a few others on here also contributed but you know who you are )

 

I was quite annoyed at myself for not having looked into it before tbh.

 

out of interest, you been anywhere nice or can't you divulge ?