GOLD

[romans holiday]

Is anyone else getting nervous about holding anything else but physical? I'm seriously starting to reconsider my position with bullionvault.

 

Can not help you there. I only have physical.

 

Edit: I know you've probably heard it a few times here but could not resist.

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXECBdPgEA

[mettu]

Can not help you there. I only have physical.

 

Edit: I know you've probably heard it a few times here but could not resist.

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXECBdPgEA

 

Romans Holiday, I am also in Seoul -what do you make of the Won v Dollar rate just now? A temporary thing or ...? Makes selling my gold very tempting. Will see the POG & rate tomorrow. I am bullish on gold long-term but the fluctuations in both the above rates are effecting my nerves, as is my wife's continual 'I told you we should have sold ...!'

 

 

[romans holiday]

Romans Holiday, I am also in Seoul -what do you make of the Won v Dollar rate just now? A temporary thing or ...? Makes selling my gold very tempting. Will see the POG & rate tomorrow. I am bullish on gold long-term but the fluctuations in both the above rates are effecting my nerves, as is my wife's continual 'I told you we should have sold ...!'

Do you mean sell gold for Won?

 

The won is now tanking. That is why your gold priced in won is "high". Why on earth would you want to sell gold for won now? My colleague, who has won, is seeing gold slip beyond her reach because she is holding an increasingly worthless currency. What are your wife's concerns? Can you not both see you are backing a winning horse? The won has become a joke in our workplace with the most common question being, "Are we working for charity yet?".

 

Talked to my boss about getting an "inflation surcharge" added to the monthly wage... you know, like the oil surcharge they add to airline tickets... he would have none of it.

[mettu]

Do you mean sell gold for Won?

 

The won is now tanking. That is why your gold priced in won is "high". Why on earth would you want to sell gold for won now? My colleague, who has won, is seeing gold slip beyond her reach because she is holding an increasingly worthless currency. What are your wife's concerns? Can you not both see you are backing a winning horse?

 

I see the Won's fall as temporary - I may well be wrong.... you seem to think it's not going to recover v GBP/US$?

 

 

[romans holiday]

I see the Won's fall as temporary - I may well be wrong.... you seem to think it's not going to recover v GBP/US$?

 

The won looks to be in real trouble and we may be seeing another 97 IMF crisis all over again.

 

I think you should look at gold as a currency. IMO, many currencies could very well get into trouble in the coming months. US dollar strength is only a temporary phenomenon due to repatriated money and deleveraging. Wait to see that tank also... not to mention the pound.

 

Consider if you sold your gold. What would you do with the won? Buy GBP or US$? ... which are relatively strong against the won now anyway. Would you just keep your money in won with the risk of the won continuing its slide? Would you be able to buy gold back again if you wanted? Certainly not with won IMO.

 

Korea could easily go the way of Iceland and the won with it. But I guess it also comes down to considerations of how much gold you have and if you want to sell all of it or just a small portion. IMO, given the banking crises and now increasing currency crises, the last thing you want to do is sell gold.

[PricedOutNative]

 

Me too, I'll have to check what denominations of gold you can get physically from their vault, if the price really does start in increase say more than 3X I think I might have to get on down there before it somehow disappears..

 

 

Is anyone else getting nervous about holding anything else but physical? I'm seriously starting to reconsider my position with bullionvault.

 

[PricedOutNative]

I think this may have changed since I joined over a year ago, or is it just me getting paranoid?

 

 

http://www.bullionvault.com/help/?FAQs/FAQs_whyBV.html

 

Can I get physical custody of my gold?

Yes - BullionVault allows physical withdrawal of gold, but only in special circumstances. The most likely case is when your bank is no longer a practicable recipient of your funds - as might be the case after political or economic upheaval in your country of residence.

 

It is to guard against those types of circumstance that some gold buyers seek immediate personal custody of their gold. The supposed security may be an illusion. Gold is commonly unusable when stored in the country where it is needed, because use of it exposes the owner to great risks; either through confiscation, personal safety or physical loss.

 

To be useful as a store of value in uncertain times gold works best when held in a place which consistently recognises foreign ownership rights and is not itself in crisis. Then it can be sold for full value. Its owner will generally find the proceeds are welcome all over the world - even at home.

 

Since nowhere can guarantee to remain permanently immune from crisis it is also sensible to retain a degree of flexibility, and this is why BullionVault offers a choice of storage locations. We also use a vault manager and technology which allow the choice of storage locations to be extended by us as geopolitical circumstances change.

 

In addition to these strategic reasons for avoiding personal custody of gold there are tactical ones:-

 

Privately held gold is not fully trusted when sold back to bullion markets, and loses value proportionately.

Privately held gold is physically less safe than vaulted gold, and very much more expensive to insure.

Upon taking private custody bar buyers must still trust the gold content unless they are competent to assay.

These are the reasons BullionVault offers private custody only as a last resort in cases of unavoidable emigration.

 

Me too, I'll have to check what denominations of gold you can get physically from their vault, if the price really does start in increase say more than 3X I think I might have to get on down there before it somehow disappears..

 

[LauraB]

Especially if they set it at 95% as an "emergency measure" with wide support from the gainless population.

 

Cosmically speaking that is the time when those that serve a corrupt master (a govt. jobsworth is no exception) need to be taught the ultimate lesson in morality.

 

The problem is their theft would be electronique unless you hold physical

 

.... & then it would be messy as I've never progressed beyond a .38 --- & that was quite a few years ago

 

 

Hello system servers, have you clocked my ip? ....... (would the word UZI excite them? )

[tinecu]

Awesome how long euribor has been rising and the 'crisis' only became apparent in Aug 07!

 

Looks like Gold has some catching up to do....

 

 

 

 

especially when Gold is priced in Euros (hope I got this right)...

 

[cgnao]

I think this may have changed since I joined over a year ago, or is it just me getting paranoid?

 

The fact that you are paranoid doesn't mean that you are wrong in your worry.

 

Remember, gold with any strings attached to prevent you from taking delivery is no good against what's coming.

 

Don't be a sucker. Get the real thing.

[Magpie]

I think this may have changed since I joined over a year ago, or is it just me getting paranoid?

 

I have to say that I remembered BV as promising physical delivery on demand. That statement above is far more hedged than that, it only seems to guarantee delivery if you can prove special circumstances.

 

 

[allyjcambo]

 

I agree physical gold is better than a derivative backed ETF (a lesson I learnt recently from holding an AIG soft commodities ETF ).

 

But gold in your hand vs. in a vault? I don’t think there’s much of a difference and here’s why.

 

If for some reason gold in the vault is confiscated or you are prohibited from taking delivery, then chances are there has been an almighty breakdown in the economy and society at large (I know things are bad but we’re not there yet), meaning very likely that paper money is worth little and law and order are out the window. In these circumstances, I think you’re better off with basic necessities together with, say, cartons of cigarettes, booze and maybe even drugs which you will be able to trade. I think that’s the paradox of gold: people hold it as real money (and I agree that gold is money) but when the time comes for when it is supposed to be useful you are probably better off trading things which people really need to survive.

 

[PricedOutNative]

 

Thanks! I thought something had changed.

I can easily Imagen trying to log onto the site one day to discover it no longer works, just like Icesave ( which luckly I got out of over a year ago due joining HPC).

Bullionvault need to make these terms clearer as people are flocking there for safety...

 

 

 

I have to say that I remembered BV as promising physical delivery on demand. That statement above is far more hedged than that, it only seems to guarantee delivery if you can prove special circumstances.

 

[Magpie]

Thanks! I thought something had changed.

I can easily Imagen trying to log onto the site one day to discover it no longer works, just like Icesave ( which luckly I got out of over a year ago due joining HPC).

Bullionvault need to make these terms clearer as people are flocking there for safety...

 

I might be wrong - others here will know far more than me on this point.

 

 

[Mr Pipples]

The fact that you are paranoid doesn't mean that you are wrong in your worry.

 

Remember, gold with any strings attached to prevent you from taking delivery is no good against what's coming.

 

Don't be a sucker. Get the real thing.

 

I remember this bit of advice I got from cgnao a while back:

 

I advise you to leave as little a paper trail as possible (none at all is ideal) and put as many barriers as possible between your bullion and the government.

 

For small capital sizes Goldmoney is the best you can do, especially if you are not comfortable with the idea of burying a stash of sovereigns in your back yard.

 

More than a few kilos though demands extra precautions.

 

Remember, these are not normal times.

 

I looked into this (taking delivery of actual gold from the Brinksmat vaults where your Goldmoney gold is kept.

 

1. you can only take delivery of full LBMA gold bars (@400oz) http://support.goldmoney.com/article.php?id=037

2. delivery is v. expensive. (eg, for one 1000oz silver bar = £1000+ I think so similar for gold I guess)

3. once you take delivery of an LBMA bar it would exit the 'chain of integrity' (http://support.goldmoney.com/article.php?id=033) and therefore loose value, in terms of the established bullion industry trade.

 

Not sure how the integrity lark would apply to smaller bars but I guess the more you've got the more of an issue it might be. (1 Kilogram = 35.27396 Ounces) Coins have an obvious advantage here in that they are harder to fake. (Saying that, maybe all you need to do to verify purity of gold bars is a density check?)

 

Of course, if things get so bad that 'the man' is stealing everyone's gold from everywhere and/or somehow the established bullion trade system no longer hold precedence, then this might still make sense - if you are fortunate enough to have that LBMA bars worth of gold. But, there is the glaring problem of where to safely store large amounts of gold without crazy/expensive security. (A secure vault in customs 'no-mans-land' at an airport was recommended as the most 'hidden' place available in terms of high security commercial storage.)

[Mr Pipples]

I agree physical gold is better than a derivative backed ETF (a lesson I learnt recently from holding an AIG soft commodities ETF ).

 

But gold in your hand vs. in a vault? I don’t think there’s much of a difference and here’s why.

 

If for some reason gold in the vault is confiscated or you are prohibited from taking delivery, then chances are there has been an almighty breakdown in the economy and society at large (I know things are bad but we’re not there yet), meaning very likely that paper money is worth little and law and order are out the window. In these circumstances, I think you’re better off with basic necessities together with, say, cartons of cigarettes, booze and maybe even drugs which you will be able to trade. I think that’s the paradox of gold: people hold it as real money (and I agree that gold is money) but when the time comes for when it is supposed to be useful you are probably better off trading things which people really need to survive.

 

Yep, that's the way I see it too. I do have a few coins though - just in case.

 

Thanks! I thought something had changed.

I can easily Imagen trying to log onto the site one day to discover it no longer works, just like Icesave ( which luckly I got out of over a year ago due joining HPC).

Bullionvault need to make these terms clearer as people are flocking there for safety...

 

Although I have a bit with Bullionvault, I reckon Goldmoney is a better bet. Although there's a fair argument for diversifying between the 2, I'll likely ditch Bullionvault soon...

[Magpie]

I remember this bit of advice I got from cgnao a while back:

 

 

 

I looked into this (taking delivery of actual gold from the Brinksmat vaults where your Goldmoney gold is kept.

 

1. you can only take delivery of full LBMA gold bars (@400oz) http://support.goldmoney.com/article.php?id=037

2. delivery is v. expensive. (eg, for one 1000oz silver bar = £1000+ I think so similar for gold I guess)

3. once you take delivery of an LBMA bar it would exit the 'chain of integrity' (http://support.goldmoney.com/article.php?id=033) and therefore loose value, in terms of the established bullion industry trade.

 

I have always wondered if the gold vaults might be less than fully backed by actual metal. I'm assued that they are totally kosher and audited and that the gold is allocated and all that, but I can't help but wonder if the truth is a bit more complex.

 

[LauraB]

(A secure vault in customs 'no-mans-land' at an airport was recommended as the most 'hidden' place available in terms of high security commercial storage.)

/& one govt. emergency declaration & it's goodbye.

 

What insurance co. would not have an exclusion clause for a govt. smash & grab?

 

[wrongmove]

.....

(Saying that, maybe all you need to do to verify purity of gold bars is a density check?)

.....

 

Depleted uranium (19.1) has a very similar density to gold (19.3), so faking bigger bars would be easier and harder to detect today than pre-nuclear industry days. Then you had to use platinum, which rather defeated the object. DU is cheap enough to make bullets out of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wrongmove]

Depleted uranium (19.1) has a very similar density to gold (19.3), so faking bigger bars would be easier and harder to detect today than pre-nuclear industry days. Then you had to use platinum, which rather defeated the object. DU is cheap enough to make bullets out of.

 

In fact, an alloy of 8.5% Pt (density 21.45), with 91.5% DU, then gilded with Au, would have exactly the same density as gold, but cost only about 10% of the real thing.

 

 

 

 

[G0ldfinger]

Is anyone else getting nervous about holding anything else but physical? I'm seriously starting to reconsider my position with bullionvault.

I consider BV as a physical condition. Yes, maybe I would prefer them to be a Swiss company, but you can't have it all.

 

Keep in mind, in 1933 they confiscated gold to inflate the system. There is no need whatsoever to do this now, since they inflate the hell out of it already. If they need gold and want to inflate, they can just expand their balance sheets by printing some notes and buying gold from it.

[Pixel8r]

I think this may have changed since I joined over a year ago, or is it just me getting paranoid?

 

The other problem you would have if you removed gold from bullion vault is that you would have to have it re-assayed when it is time to sell.

[Pixel8r]

I have always wondered if the gold vaults might be less than fully backed by actual metal. I'm assued that they are totally kosher and audited and that the gold is allocated and all that, but I can't help but wonder if the truth is a bit more complex.

 

I know that goldmoney is audited quarterly and the results are always accurate to the amount claimed. Here's their latest report;

 

http://goldmoney.com/en/report.html

 

[azazel]

In fact, an alloy of 8.5% Pt (density 21.45), with 91.5% DU, then gilded with Au, would have exactly the same density as gold, but cost only about 10% of the real thing.

 

I have a half sovereign, Elizabeth 1982 that look suspect to me. It lacks the detail of the others although the edge is detailed. I thought maybe it has be worn in a ring or pendant so the edge is protected. It weighs right and is the right thickness. What do you think?

[G0ldfinger]

I have a half sovereign, Elizabeth 1982 that look suspect to me. It lacks the detail of the others although the edge is detailed. I thought maybe it has be worn in a ring or pendant so the edge is protected. It weighs right and is the right thickness. What do you think?

Could be a legal copy for jewellery purposes. There was a discussion on GIM on this some time ago.